Hitman's Pontiac Trans Am Forum
Trans Am Information => Restoration => Topic started by: 72blackbird on February 08, 2010, 10:28:39 PM
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I'm trying to find out if the Van Nuys, CA plant ever built any '78 Firebirds w/ a 350 or 400 Pontiac V-8. Any information here would be greatly appreciated.
Geno
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I believe they built some 400 cars in Van Nuys, but they were not offered for sale in CA.
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So is it theoretically possible for a Van Nuys- built 78 Firebird to have a Pontiac 350 under the hood? The reason I'm asking is that I have a customer w/ 78 Firebird that has a sick V-6 in it, and he wants to do a V-8 swap. I know I would have to make the motor pass smog, but there's no sense even trying if the smog ref will disqualify the motor just on the basis of the 350P not even being available in a Van Nuys- built car.
Geno
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I dont believe they did a 350p, but they did do a Chevy ( no bad words guys ) 305, that you could try.
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Van Nuys built everything Norwood did. My 78 Trans Am with a four speed and the W72 400 was built in the Van Nuys plant. California didn't have regulations against assembling those cars in the state, only that they couldn't be registered in the state.
I also know for a fact that the "L" engine was installed in Van Nuys firebirds.
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So it's possbile for a Van Nuys 78 Firebird to have a 350P and end up being brought back home to CA. How do you think the smog refs would rule on that?
Geno
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So it's possbile for a Van Nuys 78 Firebird to have a 350P and end up being brought back home to CA. How do you think the smog refs would rule on that?
Geno
No problem as long as it has all the vacuum lines connected and the cat still on it. Just has to pass the sniff test. The test that will probably fail is the evap test. Most of the tanks leak. They don't necessarily leak fuel but the soldier joints aren't tight, especially around the filler tube. When they pinch off the vent tube and pressurize the tank they don't hold pressure. You generally need to drop the tank and have the filler tube and vent joint at the top of the tank re-soldered. But as far as it being a 49 state car, it's no problem. You couldn't register a new 49 state car, but if it had something like more than 7,000 miles you could. My W72 four speed passes the smog test no problem. It even passed the evap test.
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ta78,
I still need to get heads for the motor- would 6x-4's be the correct heads for a 78 350P?
Geno
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ta78,
I still need to get heads for the motor- would 6x-4's be the correct heads for a 78 350P?
Geno
Those should be correct. That's what the W72 engine used too, the Pontiac 350 heads. 6X4. It's in John Witzke's paper on the W72 engine.
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I'm trying to find out if the Van Nuys, CA plant ever built any '78 Firebirds w/ a 350 or 400 Pontiac V-8. Any information here would be greatly appreciated.
Geno
Mine is a 1978 400 Pontiac Van Nuys cars. I have the builders sheet to prove it.
Gunner
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My customer wants to go with a 403, but I still like the fact that there are 77-78 Firebirds and T/A's in CA that were built w/ pontiac motors in Van Nuys, sold around the country, and even some made it back to CA. It gives me hope for the '76 T/A project car I still have, that I can put a Pontiac engine in it and have it still pass smog.
I'm thinking I'm going to use a 400 block I have , cap it w/ some 6x-8's, but still a stroker kit in it and run some RARE manifolds- think that would pass with a Crower 60916?
Geno
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I think I should clarify though. My car DOES have a 400 Pontiac in it, and it WAS built in Van Nuys, but it was delivered to a dealer in Chicago.....
Don't know if that helps or hurts your case man........
Gunner
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Was was in the car originally? You should be able to put a CA 403 in a 49 state car, but you won't be able to put a 49 state engine in a 50 state car. What this means is you'll need an air pump on that 403 if it's going into a 50 state car. By the way, the engine has to be the same model year or newer. For example, they won't let you install a 1977 403 in a 1978 model year car.
Of course this is what the law says. Enforcement is another matter. Also, when you install a replacement engine you're suppose to bring the car to a CARB office to get a new sticker in the door with the numbers on the engine.
This applies only to 1976 and newer model years.
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The '78 Firebird has a V-6 in it now, and is a CA car- the engine we're looking at is also from a '78 T/A. My '76 T/A is a 49-state car, and originally had a 400 in it.
Geno
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If you run into trouble finding a suitable engine GM sports salvage in San Jose may have exactly what you need. I'm pretty sure they have more than one K engine in their warehouse. They pull them out of the incoming cars and hide them in their warehouse to stop people from picking them apart.
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ta78w72,
Would you happen to have their phone no.? There's no salvage yards here in L.A. that specialize in Firebirds.
Thanks,
Geno
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There at 408 432-8498
They just got in two 78 four speed cars. Very rare for California....mostly they have 403 cars.
http://www.gmsportssalvage.com/
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Thanks for the link.
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Ummm. I think you guys better double check because none of what was said here is what I was told.
I was told that the engine must be the same as what was available for that model car. For example, if the base Firebird was available with a 403, then you're good to go. If the biggest engine was a 350, then a 350 is as big as you can go on a base 'Bird.
The smog guy also told me that he would have no idea what internals are in the engine. Put in the biggest cam you want, as long as it passes the sniff test, you're ok. He also said that I could put dual (W72) exhaust system on my L78, because it was available on a '78 Trans Am. Again, as long as it pass the sniff test.
ta78w72: I don't think they would know if the engine was a 1977 or 1978 block. As long as the engine displacement was available for that VIN, you're OK.
That's what I was told.
Craig
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Craig,
You raise a good point- I'll have to check on that before making the swap. Thanks for your input.
Geno
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Sure. I just don't want you to do all the work and then have a problem.
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They wouldn't, most likely be able to tell the difference between a 77 and 78. But the regulation is the same or newer model year engine. It's up to the register owner to provide the proof when the new engine code is attached to the door by CARB. The smog guy is just a smog guy. He's wrong about the cam....you've got to pass the test at the stock timing. You can have any cam that meets the timing spec. He's wrong about the engine. On a 50 state car you can install any 50 state engine as long as you install the stock smog stuff along with it (of the same or newer model year). In most cases it means the transmission also, in other cases it means the transmission and gas tank...along with all the smog sensors...and nothing can be altered. For example, the filler tube on the gas tank can't be altered to fit a specific application. It's legal, if you do it correctly, to install a LT1 in a 78 trans am. I know someone who is doing it and has spoken in length to the CARB officials.
If the 78 had a 50 state engine, he could install a CA 403. He couldn't install a 400. He also couldn't install true dual exhaust for the 403. He has to have an original configuration for that engine.
But don't take my word for it, read the requirements on the CARB website. I have. I certainly wouldn't take any advice from a smog guy.
You're the one who should double check what you're posting here because it's incorrect.
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WOW, very hostile. What's your problem? I can't even post on this board without getting flamed. I don't need to double check anything. I'm not doing the swap.
I never said what I wrote was FACT, I said that's what I was TOLD. The smog shop I went to was recommended by the Burbank AAA office. It's who they send everyone to. Why don't you post a link to the CARB info?
So I can take a 1978 Toyota Corolla and drop a '78 Pontiac 400 in it, with all the smog stuff, and it's street legal? Cool.
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I'm no expert ... here's some links;
http://www.arb.ca.gov/homepage.htm
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/aftermkt.htm
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/replace.htm
Quote from the last link ...
Cams
The manufacturer of replacement cams determines which of their parts are considered replacements for original equipment. These replacement cams are then listed by vehicle year, make, model and engine size in the manufacturer's catalogue. A replacement cam must have exactly the same specifications (grind) as the original part. Cams that have different specifications than the original part require an Executive Order to be legal for street use.
Replacement Engines
Entire engines can be replacement parts. As with any other replacement part, the engine must be identical to the original. If the replacement block or engine is obtained without emissions equipment, all the equipment from the original engine must be installed on the replacement block.
If the engine is not identical to the original then it is not a replacement part, instead it is considered an engine change.
Engine changes are a modification that must meet certain requirements to be legal (please see "Engine Changes").
Engine Changes
Engine changes are legal as long as the following requirements are met to ensure that the change does not increase pollution from the vehicle:
The engine must be the same year or newer than the vehicle.
The engine must be from the same type of vehicle (passenger car, light-duty truck, heavy-duty truck, etc.) based on gross vehicle weight.
If the vehicle is a California certified vehicle then the engine must also be a California certified engine.
All emissions control equipment must remain on the installed engine.
Vehicles converted to 100% electric drive, with all power supplied by on-board batteries are considered in compliance with the engine change requirements. All fuel system components must be removed prior to inspection. For additional information contact the ARB helpline at (800) 242-4450
After an engine change, vehicles must first be inspected by a state referee station. The vehicle will be inspected to ensure that all the equipment required is in place, and vehicle will be emissions tested subject to the specifications of the installed engine.
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WOW, very hostile. What's your problem? I can't even post on this board without getting flamed. I don't need to double check anything. I'm not doing the swap.
I never said what I wrote was FACT, I said that's what I was TOLD. The smog shop I went to was recommended by the Burbank AAA office. It's who they send everyone to. Why don't you post a link to the CARB info?
So I can take a 1978 Toyota Corolla and drop a '78 Pontiac 400 in it, with all the smog stuff, and it's street legal? Cool.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to be hostile. As far as a 1978 toyota, I don't know. It depends on the car. I don't know of any regulation that mandates a GM engine can only go into a GM car. California is concerned about engine systems meeting their emissions requirements. So, the regulations are usually specific to an engine system. If the toyota was a 49 state car, then I can see no reason why you couldn't install a 400 but you would also have to install the transmission. If the toyota was a 50 state car, you couldn't. But if I were going to do something like this I would check with CARB.
It's all way too complicated and shouldn't be. California encourages people to replace engines with the same type because they realize how complicated it gets. The reason I reacted the way I did is to make a person think before taking on a project like this. I did help someone who had already installed a 1979 W72 engine and a four speed transmission into a 1977 California 403 car. All his money was wasted. He couldn't get the car through the smog requirement. It was a total travesty.
I would caution anyone not to take advice from a smog guy. Anyone in California should contact CARB before doing such a project. Remember, the original question was about a California six cylinder conversion to eight. If it was a 403 to 403...or a 400 to 400, while you're still suppose to go through CARB for a revised door vin, you could probably get through the smog checks with no problem. But a six cylinder to eight might be tougher.
Again, I apologize if my post came off as flaming you...that wasn't my intention at all.
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No problem. I was also just passing on what I heard and don't want all the work done for nothing.
I originally went to the smog shop because I bought a 49 state Trans Am with the Pontiac 400. I don't want to do a nut and bolt restoration and not be able to pass smog and register it here in California.
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No problem. I was also just passing on what I heard and don't want all the work done for nothing.
I originally went to the smog shop because I bought a 49 state Trans Am with the Pontiac 400. I don't want to do a nut and bolt restoration and not be able to pass smog and register it here in California.
You should have no problem. I have a W72 four speed that passes smog no problem. Kind of rare in California to see a 1978 four speed trans am.
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After reading those CARB requirements for my V-6 to V-8 swap, it seems like a CA 403 w/ all of the smog gear would be a viable option. But would the V-6 gas tank be identical to the V-8 gas tank? I'd imagine that both would have to have the vapor return lines for the CA-spec EEC.
Geno
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In 1978 the gas tank wasn't part of the smog system.....although the canister was. Also, that tank must hold pressure. So, you're tank is OK, although it will be subject to a pressure test. I believe the fuel tank became part of the emission systems when they put pressure sensors in the tank. If the tank loses pressure...like you don't replace the fuel cap, the computer throws a code or causes the light to come on. 1978 were much simpler days.
If I seem cranky on this subject....it's because I am. I hate this. Why do we have to jump through hoops on 30 year old cars?
Sorry to everyone that I'm in such a bad mood on this subject!!!!
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Well ... hope the links helped Geno. I was curious as to the rules myself as this comes up from time to time for the golden state residents.
After reading those CARB requirements for my V-6 to V-8 swap, it seems like a CA 403 w/ all of the smog gear would be a viable option. But would the V-6 gas tank be identical to the V-8 gas tank? I'd imagine that both would have to have the vapor return lines for the CA-spec EEC.
Geno
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I am a bit concerned about the proposed engine to be swapped in being considered an 'engine change' instead of a 'replacement engine'- it's a smogger 403 w/ what appears to be all of the smog gear and an air pump. But since it's a V-6 to V-8 swap I'm not sure how the referee station will call it, even if the motor will pass the emissions testing.
I don't think I'm going to take any chances with this swap, considering how much money it costs just to obtain the donor engine, new exhaust and emissions equipment, as well as the associated labor cost to install everything. Another issue is that my customer wants a used but running engine to keep the swap cost low, and I can't guarantee the results with such an unknown factor as a 30+ yr. old used motor.
Geno
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this is what concerns me:
"that the change does not increase pollution from the vehicle"
going from a V6 to a V8 will probably increase pollution.
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Oh MAN am I glad I left California when I got out of the Corps. I feel so sorry for you guys out there. You have to put up with that CRAP just to keep treehuggers happy. I'd be postal by now if I'd stayed.
Gunner
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The V-8 (403) will put out more emissions than the V-6 (231), but no more than other 403's since it would be stock. But I'm thinking the V-8 will be ruled an 'engine change' since it's an upgrade and not the same size as the original engine. Oh well.
Gunner- it's a total PITA, but I'm in the same boat as Craig, as I have a 76 T/A (49 state car) and it needs an engine. I'm thinking I could get a W72 shortblock and go from there. At least w/ the T/A a 400 is just a replacement engine.
Geno
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In the big picture this has nothing to do with California. What this is, is interpretation of the laws, which are written by lawyers, so we can pay them to interpret what the law says. Most laws can be seen in different ways and therefore, interpretation.
I guess I'm a tree hugger because I appreciate that we're trying to keep the air clean. It's all about playing by the rules. These are the rules for a '76 and newer car here in California, so get over it. If you don't want to play by those rules, go buy a '75 or older car, then you can do what you want. These laws aren't something new, they've been around for a while. It's really not that big of a deal.
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Actually the laws were changed about four or five years ago. Prior to the law change, one additional model year was exempt each year. If the law hadn't been changed, probably the 1980 model years and prior would be exempt. The old law kept the last 30 model years under the smog testing requirements. The new law keeps all model years from 1976 and on under the smog testing requirements.
What's funny is California was one of the last states to enact emissions test. The federal government had to threaten to withhold transportation funding before California caved in and began testing. Now California leads the nation in emissions requirements.
I'm not one that sits backs and "gets over it". I'll keep working on our representatives to change the law.
Geno, I don't blame you for being cautious. But a phone call to CARB would shed light on whether you can do what you want to do or not.
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In the big picture this has nothing to do with California. What this is, is interpretation of the laws, which are written by lawyers, so we can pay them to interpret what the law says. Most laws can be seen in different ways and therefore, interpretation.
But you have to look at the entire big picture. The only interpretation of the law that matters is the one adopted by the state regulator. However they decide to interpret it IS the way it is -- unless or until you seek legal recourse through the court system to have that interpretation changed. If the CARB says "no", then you can't do it until either a court instructs them to change their mind or the law is changed.
Life is easier for the regulators if they just say "no". They aren't pestered by endless requests for permission, and they don't have to worry about whether or not the exception is well-done or just thrown together. It's a fact of life in the bureaucracy that "no" and "no exceptions" is the rule.
So... you are faced with 4 alternatives. You either hire a lawyer to try and force them to reinterpret the law in a way that benefits you, OR you try to lobby legislators to change the law to something more favorable to you, OR you accept the prevailing interpretation and live with it, OR you just move out of the jurisdiction. Most people find that the last alternative is the one that's cheapest and most effective if they REALLY want to do something that's not readily accepted.
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ta78w72- The law I was referring to were the CAFE laws for converters in 1976. What are you trying to change the law to?
1976 is when cats were installed so it seems like a good year to start tighter emissions regulations. IIRC there was a representative in Sam Mateo county that proposed getting rid of all cars 1975 and older a year or two ago.
I have a '74 BMW with a 2.0 liter engine that is perfectly tuned. I'm a bit embarrassed when I stop at a light and smell all the unburned gas smell coming from my tailpipe.
"If the CARB says "no", then you can't do it until either a court instructs them to change their mind or the law is changed."---That's what I'm saying. What CARB says, or at least what's posted above, is up for interpretation. It says that an engine change can't result in more pollution. To me that means you can't put a V8 in place of a V6, but most on here didn't see it that way. Probably the same thing if you call CARB on the phone. The information is only as good as the person at the other end.
So again, buy a '75 and do whatever you want to, then you don't have to worry about any of this.
I was 16 when Smokey came out and I wanted a black '77 or '78 TA. I thought about buying a '75 but it doesn't have a meaning to me. I knew that the '78 I have now would have to pass smog, so because I want that car, I'll play by the rules.
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1976 is when cats were installed so it seems like a good year to start tighter emissions regulations.
Minor bit of correction: 1975 was the first year that catalytic converters were required. The EPA emissions standards changed between the 1974 model year and the 1975 model year, and they were the same for the 1975 and 1976 model years. They changed again for the 1977 model year.
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I know you can't fight City Hall, or more specifically Sacramento- since I'm not going anywhere and my customers often request this type of work it's in my best interests to become proficient in making 76 and later T/A's and Firebirds smog compliant. It's more work of course, but I have no problems with doing the work or complying with the emissions laws - it just takes time to do it right. And we're dealing with 30+ year-old cars here- if the fuel system or exhaust isn't 100% the car won't pass.
Older vehicles sometimes with high mileage sometimes have a harder time passing emissions testing, so even after all of the appropriate work is done they sometimes don't pass. Extensive tuning is often needed, which only works on an engine that still has good seals, proper clearances, and good compression. If you're swapping in a used motor with unknown history and condition, there are no guarantees- it may even need an minor overhaul to make it run decent. It's very unrealistic to expect a tired old motor to run like a new one and still run clean.
Knowing what I know now I don't have alot of big concerns getting my '76 T/A smogged and certified when the time comes, but as for the '78 Firebird, that remains to be seen, since the owner wants a used motor.
Geno
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Do '75 Firebirds have cats? I know the '75 BMW's like mine don't, they started in '76.
Geno- That's a great point. A tired engine will have trouble passing no matter what you do to it.
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Yes, all 1975 GM products used catalytic converters and required the use of unleaded gasoline.
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I didn't know that. Why did BMW not start until '75?
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CAFE standards are Federal. I wasn't referring to those that changed. I was referring to the state law that exempted each year one more model year. That state law was repealed and the model year for requiring emissions testing was frozen with the 1976 model year. Otherwise, each year the exemption would have moved up one model year.
I think emissions requirements started with the 1969 model year They weren't that severe though. That's correct, isn't it Rick?
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From what I've gathered, the first tailpipe emissions standards were set by the predecessor of CARB for the 1966 model year in California. It's not like the industry ignored air quality, though -- as the PCV systems were introduced in 1961 and quickly became standard equipment. The CARB was formed legislatively in 1967 by merging a couple of entities together, so they started merrily marching along as soon as the regulations could be promulagated. The US EPA was formed in 1970, and the rest is history.
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Well, the air quality was really, really bad in the mid sixties. My first experience with severe smog was in 1963 in Los Angeles. I remember my eyes watering and I wondered how anyone could live in L.A. The SF bay area wasn't as bad at that time. I'm either used to it by now, or the air quality is better.
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Well the air quality is far better. I don't remember if there were any smog alerts this last summer, but in the late 60's and early 70's it was all summer, plus, the number of people and cars is much higher now than it was then.
A lot has to do with geography too. There's always a breeze in the Bay Area and the smog just blows away, like it never existed. LA on the other-hand is a bowl opening to the ocean so the pollution gets trapped. Same goes for Phoenix.
Oh that law. I guess if you bought a '76 or newer TA thinking it would be exempt some day soon, you would be pissed off. I never thought the State would let people start taking their catalytic converters off so I always knew I'd have to pass.
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Emissions for vehicles in the 70's WAS needed. Today, there are very few 1970's vehicles remaining ...or 60's come to think of it. 25 newer cars probably emit fewer emissions than a single car from the 70's, hence, why air quality is much better.
Emissions testing should die a natural death. It's served it's usefulness. Now it's simply a hindrance to automotive enthusiasts. Period.
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I know of a 78 ta with smog compliant 403 for sale at a good price. Its a daily driver with auto trans and no rust or bondo. Just in case your customer is interested.