Hitman's Pontiac Trans Am Forum
Trans Am Information => Trans Am Tech => DriveTrain => Topic started by: k_garretson23 on April 10, 2008, 08:08:15 PM
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ok so i got a 79 t/a with a non turbo pontiac 301 in it. it is all matching numbers and everything but being a teen i want to be able to go fast. i already asked my dad if i can get a pontiac 400. he said no without hesitation cause he wants it to stay matching numbers..which is undersandable. but does the 301 have any potential to be a good fast engine?
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There are some tricks that you can work on it, but in the end you can't push it too hard or you'll break it. The crank in particular isn't made to take a lot of abuse. The whole point of the 301 engine was to cut weight out of the car, so the block and the crank had a lot of material removed compared to earlier engines. Other changes were made also (like in the cylinder heads) all with the same goal -- removing weight. Unfortunately, GM decided to go with the SBC 305 as the corporate engine for all F-bodies after the 81 model year so the 301 died. Pontiac never had a chance to mature the engine and develop its full potential.
Joe Richter, who posts here and on TAC under the ID "jjr", is the resident 301 and 301T expert. He has a website that's dedicated to the 301 engine. The 301 makes for a good cruiser and can return decent fuel economy. There's no question that a car with the original engine will bring more on resale than one that's had the engine changed out for another displacement, so your dad is correct on that count.
I'd hunt Joe up and reference the materials he has to improve the baseline performance of your 301. ;)
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I will second that.
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I have two sides to the site...
A very basic website with a number of faq-like articles and the
forum side, which hosts a growing number of folks that tweak
their 301 powered cars.
Please take some time and look through it and then holler with
any questions...
Joe R
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It just occured to me -- the link would be nice!
http://www.301garage.com/
Sorry for that oversight! :-[
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so do they make Hi po cranks for the 301, and do 400 heads fit? they seem like a good cruisin engine anyways.. good luck man, don't try and go too fast in it, especially if it is original and your young...tickets bad...(i haven't heard of hardly any hi-po 301 parts, ever!)
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I'm not aware of any stronger cranks for the 301, and while the bolts will line up on standard heads (IIRC), there are no intake manifolds for them because the deck heights are shorter and the standard intakes won't fit (problem with the geometry of the "V"). There is also the problem that the chamber volumes are too large for the smaller 301 displacement, meaning you can't get an decent compression ratio with them. Basically the aftermarket never stepped up for an engine that was only in production for a few years and wasn't widely used. I'm sure Joe's got all the ones who did well-covered at this webiste at the 301 garage. ;)
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While lore often tells of weak 301 crankshafts, it isn't accurate.
Sure, any metal part can fail no matter what engine your talking about...
Racers and tweakers have revved to 5k and 6k regularly and retuned,
but since the engine wasn't designed for peak power that high, there's
no reason to go there.
While other Pontiac heads more or less fit, - Rick's right, the deck height
makes any other intake unsuitable.
The 301/301T has more potential, enough to be reasonably happy.
I guess in summary, the path to realizing more performance from a 301/301T
isn't exactly the same as say a 400 or 455.
Joe R
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like joe said the 301 will never be a 400/455.....but.....it can & will benefit from all the standard performance tricks. you can bore it for more cid, shave the heads/deck the block for higher compression, port the heads & increase valve size. & of course add a bigger cam with roller rockers. also get a nice rebuilt q-jet, bigger holley or edelbrock carb. then there's the tranny improvements like a higher stall & shift kit, & get lower gears.
all that stuff willl wake up the 301 alot & could actually be a respectable little engine. ::)
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or you can do what alot of collectors do and pull the engine/trans and store it sealled up in a bag for long term and build a second motor trans ( to any degree you want) so if it goes boom you didn't damage the original one .
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Hey, i actually have a little 301, naturally aspirated, in my 79 T/A Bandit edition... I was wondering, do you think that it could safely handle a 100 shot of nos? Because, since there's not alot i can do as far as heads and stuff go, i want to have power, but, not exactly fork alot of money into it... I was also thinking about opening up the shaked hood scoop, making it breathe better, and bolting some headers on to it with an X-flow exhaust... Good ideas?
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Hey, i actually have a little 301, naturally aspirated, in my 79 T/A Bandit edition... I was wondering, do you think that it could safely handle a 100 shot of nos? Because, since there's not alot i can do as far as heads and stuff go, i want to have power, but, not exactly fork alot of money into it... I was also thinking about opening up the shaked hood scoop, making it breathe better, and bolting some headers on to it with an X-flow exhaust... Good ideas?
bro if you have a 79 301 SE , that car needs restored. there was only 573 made. 213 manual , 360 auto trans
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Hey, i actually have a little 301, naturally aspirated, in my 79 T/A Bandit edition... I was wondering, do you think that it could safely handle a 100 shot of nos? Because, since there's not alot i can do as far as heads and stuff go, i want to have power, but, not exactly fork alot of money into it... I was also thinking about opening up the shaked hood scoop, making it breathe better, and bolting some headers on to it with an X-flow exhaust... Good ideas?
First off welcome to the site and second off i would totally agree with 4 SPeed, Are you sure it is a true SE? If so i wouldn't put any after market parts on that and go completely stock. If speed is what you want keep that car and buy yourself a gen4 TA with an LS1. However anyone who knows anything about TA's knows how rare that car you have is.
ok so i got a 79 t/a with a non turbo pontiac 301 in it. it is all matching numbers and everything but being a teen i want to be able to go fast. i already asked my dad if i can get a pontiac 400. he said no without hesitation cause he wants it to stay matching numbers..which is undersandable. but does the 301 have any potential to be a good fast engine?
See if your dad will let you take the motor out and store it that way when you go to sell it you still have the original numbers matching motor in it. Any mods i have done to my car like new heads etc, i have kept all the old parts so i can still have a numbers matching car.
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I know it's the Bandit edition. It's almost all the way done. And unfortunately it can't be all matching numbers :( The idiot who had it before me blew the original up, got another motor. Then when i got it, it was blown up (again) with 2 inches of sludge at the bottom of the oil pan. So this is this car's 3rd engine, with only 67,000 miles on it.
I got it looking something like this (I can't get ahold of the VIN at the moment, it's having it's body work done. :
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r4/Mac289/Bandit2.jpg)
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r4/Mac289/Bandit3.jpg)
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r4/Mac289/Bandit5.jpg)
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r4/Mac289/Bandit6.jpg)
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r4/Mac289/Bandit8.jpg)
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r4/Mac289/Bandit11.jpg)
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r4/Mac289/Bandit13.jpg)
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r4/Mac289/Bandit15.jpg)
It does not look anything like this now. It's sitting in a body shop right now (the guy who's doing it for me is a friend who's a real pro at this stuff) in full primer, ready for paint. Also, to further vent my dislike of the previous owner, he left a bag of fertilizer in the trunk... then the car sit for 15 years. No truck, no gas tank, no rear end basically under the body. So, finding all those parts took me forever. But, she's almost done, and i can't wait to have her back. If she's a true SE, then i'll be ecstatic. However, since the engine is from a different vehicle, i don't see how NOS would effect the value of it. I may be wrong :/
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So after doublechecking other picures i have taken, along with the faded stripes, and the gold accented bumper grilles... i believe it is indeed one of the SEs...
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if you have the vin number. People on here can verify it for sure
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Vin wont verify. Phs or build sheet.
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Isn't the build sheet under the backseat if i am correct?
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top of the gas tank also.
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Alright. So what am i looking for one the build sheet exactly?
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the build sheet is usually either stuffed under a seat or on top of the gas tank. On there it will tell you details about your car. If you scan it into your computer and upload it to this forum we can help you read it.
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The car just got it's first good coats of black paint. I'll post up some pictures when i can. It looks really straight though.
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As nice as it is to have a original, matching numbers 2nd gen TA, any of them w/ a 301 or 301T is never gonna be a a real muscle car in terms of performance, and will always be slower than even a stock 400 or 455-powered 2nd gen TA or Firebird. Adding speed parts on a 301 is a waste of time IMO and a good way to blow up your numbers-matching engine- store it in your garage in a plastic bag, swap in a 400 or 455, and experience what a fast 2nd gen TA really feels like.
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The reason im willing to do some work to the engine because it is not the original engine. It's the correct displacement, however the original was blown long ago, and when i got it the other engine it had in it had water in the cylinders, so it was shot. The one i have is a great looking crate engine (Took forever to find) so i figured i might as well do some slight mods to it. If i can get it to work, then it'll be one of the few 301s out there that has some fire to it. I'm not going to be doing this all at once, these are over time upgrades as i get the money. Don't get me wrong, i'm not going crazy with the 301, just doing some common tweaks to get it to come to life. If i had the money i would buy i 455 off a friend, but it's got a less than desirable compression ratio and don't want to get new heads for it, plus i already have a brand new engine practically.
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Non- original engine = not numbers matching, and that's a big loss of value in the collectors' market for musclecars. And while the 301 you have may be correct for the TA, it still will never replace an original engine once it's gone.
Warming up the existing 301 might get you another 20-30 hp at the most w/ the usual bolt-ons, but due to the poor flow characteristics of the 301 heads (you can't use 326 or 350P heads due to the deck height difference) you won't see a better power increase compared to doing the same mods on a 326-455. You'll also find aftermarket bolt-ons of the 301 are limited, compared to finding speed parts for the 326-455. This is also why you won't find alot of articles on souping up a 301- for the same money you can do a larger Poncho V-8 and get a far better hp return on your investment.
A running 301 is still better than nothing at all though- just forget about trying to make it keep up w/ even a 326.
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i agree with 72blackbird about the 301 never really being a true performance engine, especially compared to a 455. hows the old saying go.. "there's no replacement for displacement"
however any engine will respond to standard speed tricks. the 301 can have mild port & polish work done to improve head flow, you can shave or deck the heads (& block) to incerease compression, get forged pistons if you want/need. from there a good cam selection & headers plus a re-tuned q-jet or god forbid a holley :o will make ALOT more than 20-30hp increases. closer to 100 or more depending on whats actually done. there is no reason the little 301 cant make respectable power for a daily driver or street car... & still get decent gas mileage. also slightly higher stalll speed for the torque converter & maybe a lower gear ratio to help off the line performance.
also just an FYI, my 301 turbo engine is faster than a stock 75-78 L78 400 t/a. it only has minor mods like egr removal, smog pump bypass, & upping the boost to 10psi. only 1 psi over stock, if i pushed it to 13-15 psi it would be even faster. & there are others out there that have their 301t's into the 12's... & stock bottom end! so again dont let anyone tell you a 301 cant be a decent performer... obviously nothing like a modified 400-455, but if its all you have to work with it can be a fun little engine. plus its over 100 pounds lighter on the nose.
just my .02 as an owner of a 78 w72 t/a & a turbo 301 t/a... & soon to be stroked pontiac 72 bird!
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> This is also why you won't find alot of articles on souping up a 301
Actually, there's an entire forum that helps 301 owners...
It has nearly 42,000 total posts in some 5400 or so topics.
There are in fact some design areas that hamper what you can do,
but the package has more to give than what it's factory trim did.
It's use was due to government regs that made the 400 extinct,
in the day it was set up for emissions, mileage and warranty
concerns. Free from all of that it can make most owners happy,
and unless you really like single digit gas mileage, it is a bit more
practical.
Joe
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Yeah i know that the 301 will never truly be able to compete with the larger engines, but i don't really want it too. I want it to have some pep, but not be a built-to-the-hilt engine. plus the gas mileage factor is good for me too because im a college student. Im not really looking to get rid of this car for resale either, im planning on keeping it (otherwise i would keep everything stock due to it being a Y84). Cosmetically it will be as original, just a few engine mods (Please don't kill me when you read this...)
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I have no problem w/ anyone wanting to warm up or even rebuild a 301 or 301T- it's your money, engine, car and you should enjoy it as you see fit. In over 20+ years of rebuilding ponchos I've had more customer ask about souping up their 301, and when I showed them the cost to reach a certain hp level for the 301 vs. a 326-455 and make it near bulletproof the choice ended up being for the larger engine.
I do like the smaller bore ponchos like the 326 and 350P- they are also capable of making good hp while maintaining decent mpg. But unlike the 301, the 326 and 350P can use any heads from the traditional Pontiac V-8 family and share the 6.625 rods and 3.75" stroke crank w/ the 389 and 400. It's this common engine architecture that gives these small bore ponchos tremendous torque for their size. Finding forged pistons for either engine can be difficult or expensive (350P Probe flattops normally go for $479/set), but forged rods and even cranks are reasonable in price and good aluminum heads for these engines are now available. I recently built a 326 w/ 65cc KRE's and 4340 H-beams- I expect that engine to make at least 375-400 hp from stock unported heads. That engine also has the potential to make even more hp, once the heads are ported- so I do also agree that small- bore ponchos can make power.
Geno
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Haha i was more talking about people wanting to kill me after i said i was going to mod a Y84 301. But yeah, i get what you are saying about it not being a truly wise building investment when compared with other poncho engines. If i had known what i do now about the 301, i probably would have gotten a 350P over it, but since i already have a practically new engine, im just going to work with it and see what i can do. Thanks for the engine talk though, really appreciated it. First time really digging into what i can do with one.
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If simply better performance is the key, then the forth gen cars
with the LS-1/LT-1 series of engines would be an even better
choice than any 2nd gen engine. They even get decent gas
mileage...
In my opinion the 301 to 400 swap is kinda marginal. Most of
the non SD 455 motors where only what 200 hp anyways...
So on one hand you can have the generally good running
301 original engine, or spend some serious money for a 400/455
and get a "little" more early torque. But if you want serious
hp, you just wasted some good money for some pretty old
technoligy. And of course, once swapped it's just another hacked
up old car with little resale value.
Joe
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A 301 to 400 swap is marginal? I doubt that.
The 400 has the potential to make over 500 hp with no turbos, blowers, or nitrous and on pump gas- try that w/ a 301T and and all you'd have is one very expensive grenade waiting to explode. And what some might consider old technology is also proven- unless you are a GM Master tech you won't be able to get that LT-1 or LS-1 running again without a lot of diagnostic work once the sensor pack starts failing. The Pontiac V-8 is a 50+ year old design, yet it can make the same hp as any high-tech GM LS V-8. The abundant supply of aftermarket parts available for the 326-455 Poncho and the numerous high performance builds done and currently running in hundreds of thousands of classic high performance Pontiacs indicates it's a classic design that is still very capable- it's really the only true choice if you want to retain collector value and still have a high performance engine. A custom build from a known Pontiac builder will only add value to your ride, not deduct from it.
The reason so many classic Pontiac owners stay away from 301's is because they just don't stand up to high performance street use- so many blow up when their owners push them too hard. If the 301 was as good as any other engine in the 326-455 Pontiac family there would be 1000's of them making 400-500 hp- and of course we all know that is not the case. The 301 is a decent engine for grocery getter use or point A-B travel- try to make it something more and you'll be pulling out a blown up engine for a real Pontiac v-8.
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comparing a stock 400 of the mid 70's to a good running slightly modded 301 or 301t is in fact marginal. the comparison was to a 200 hp stock 400 say from 76-78. of course there is no comparison to a hopped up 400/455 to a 301. but it takes alot of money to make the 500 horse power from 400's compared to a basic rebuild with basic parts like cam & headers for a 301. big difference here is th OP wants to keep a basically stock engine & car, hence the 301, but make it have a little more power.. possibly even kind of sort of impressive. ;)
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To save weight, engineers removed some of the counterweights from the 301
crank. This made it the only externally balanced Pontiac V-8 made.
They put a limit of 4500 rpm on this engine because of the crankshaft design.
Since non chevy GM V-8's mostly make their best power in the low to mid rpm
range, the design worked fine. What we have found is that if someone ignores
the restriction, the crank flexes slightly in the middle and starts some bad main
bearing wear that can quickly spread. High revs are outside the power band, and
essentially the damage is really abuse caused by ignorance.
The "other" design limit is the single plane, small channel, high velocity intake system
that was born to get some fuel economy. When they turbo charged the thing, the
intake system was no longer the problem.
Perhaps the largest problem the 301 sees is oil choking in the turbo's oil passages,
destroying a precision turbo built to spin at 130,000 rpm.
Later owners of these cars usually got one with a dead turbo and concluded that
they were dogs... They weren't, but needed an informed owner to take car of their
needs.
In 1980, a stock turbo TA paced Indy. All they did was take out the AC compressor,
change rear gears to 2.56 and use shaved tires. To pace the race, the Pace car
had to handle 80-100 mph. That's getting some groceries pretty darn fast I think...
Joe