Hitman's Pontiac Trans Am Forum
Trans Am Photos => Restoration Projects => Topic started by: Schroeder on May 28, 2012, 07:20:34 PM
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Well I decided to start my own little project thread instead of starting topics everyday with various questions for you guys. With my own thread not only can I ask you questions, but I can keep you guys updated on what I'm doing (for those who care!). I just got the engine out and there is a lot I can do now such as painting the frame, firewall, replacing body mounts, etc, etc.
The main point of pulling this out was to kick off my efforts to go through this entire car. I'm going to start by repainting the engine, replacing the rear main, and replacing the seals and bearings in my M21.
Here some pictures to start you guys off. Below these first several are some pictures of things that I have questions about....
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4140.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4132.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4130.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4120.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4121.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4116.jpg)
Now here are the pictures concerning my questions....
1. What is this on my steering column? A neighbor told me this was for a automatic shifter on the column. Where would this have come from? I'd like to think that he is wrong because if he's right it means there is some incorrect piece of crap that was used to piece stuff together.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4115.jpg)
2. What is the little cut off wire knub sticking out of the firewall by the AC/heater box thing? What's it for? Anyone know?
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4111.jpg)
3. Here is a shot taken under my car. The bolt sticking out is a bolt connecting the cross member to my frame. The bolt seems oversized because it was touching my floor pan. Is it? Or could my body be messed up? Would smashed, junk body bushings cause this?
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4106.jpg)
4. What are these two snipped off wires that go into the car at the base of the brake booster for?
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4113.jpg)
5. Does this paint removal on the door striker indicate that my doors are out of adjustment?
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4138.jpg)
6. Is it normal that the subframe be pushed out like this where the bumper attaches to the subframe? Heavy bolts with heavily splined bases push through so as to stop the bolt from spinning, so I'd assume this is normal, but thought I'd check.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4135.jpg)
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Looks cool. Is it a real SE?
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the linkage is for an auto shfter as they used the same columns in all
the wire knub i do not know but ll look on mine
the bolt is to hard to see from the pic
the 2 wires on booster look like after market maybe an alarm
car looks great
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It's an SE clone. Thanks guys. It is a lot of work that's for sure. I'm going to replace all the gaskets and paint everything you see (except for the exterior of the car.) Where can I get a small amount of paint for the engine? I want something close to the corporate blue. I think a quart would be way too much. Where do you guys get your blue?
Also, do you guys have any suggestions on what paint to get for the exhaust manifolds and M21?
This week is probably going to be a slow one for the car. I have hmwk for school and may have to work one night this week too. I hope to get stuff ready for blasting this weekend though.
Thanks for helping with the questions I have. If you guys have more answeres or input I appreciate it!
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cut off nub is vacuum for your ac/heat controls.
bolt is on trans crossmember-- just appears prior owner or whoever lost bolt and used one a little longer.
sub frame to bumper/bracket area spline area. that is very common . no worries there.
Is this a '77 or '78?
I'm seeing a little of both.
Just asking.
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you can buy your paint in a can. I think NPD has the correct color for you.
probably a toll free call
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appears be a VERY clean car.
Doesn't look like you will have too hard of a project ahead of you.
Sorry about the multiple post.
I'm on cell phone.
Sometimes the roaming ain't what customers pay for.
Damn ---- I wish that was my project.
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For the exhaust manifolds, I HIGHLY recommend the stainless exhaust manifold paint sold only by The Eastwood Company. If your not familiar with them, they simply offer some of the best automotive restoration supplies on the market. I simply brush it on and it last for years. I don't know of any other product thay lasts a long and thier under hood black is simply awesome. Check them out and I'm sure they have some other paints you may need, Great car to restore you have there. Keep us posted, Mike
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Shakerbreaker, keep in mind I paid a very very good price for this car as if it were already restored. I have found very much stuff that is wrong with it. I got screwed from my own ignorance of these cars at the time and from the criminal I bought this from trying to hide stuff. Anyway, it is what it is. If I woulda paid project price for this I woulda had NO problem with the car.
Here are several pictures with some questions I have. This weekend or next week sand blasting is going to begin on the core support, exhaust manifolds, muncie housing, driveshaft, shifter, etc. New gears for the muncie should also be coming, so there will be lots of fun pictures next week hopefully if the timeline plays out correctly! Here you guys go. I appreciate any wisdom you can offer me.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/clutch%20and%20flywheel/IMGP4222.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/clutch%20and%20flywheel/IMGP4223.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/clutch%20and%20flywheel/IMGP4224.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/clutch%20and%20flywheel/IMGP4225.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/clutch%20and%20flywheel/IMGP4229.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/clutch%20and%20flywheel/IMGP4233.jpg)
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yes -- temp sending unit in head.
yes -- freeze plugs and oil gall plugs plugs rear of block.
Yes --- crank.
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iceman, I have heard of eastwood and their products. Thanks for the suggestion. ill write down the name of that paint. No wonder I never had a n engine temperature reading. I had a suspsicion that was the temp unit. It's plug in on my wire harness must be missing because there was nothing in its vacinity that should have fit it.
Shakerbreaker, do the freeze plugs or oil plugs typically leak? Like I said I have oil all over the back of the engine and I can't tell where it's all coming from!
Who here recommends the viton rubber seals for the rear mean? Who here reccomends the graphite impregnated rope seals? I've done my research and it appears that it's half and half for who prefers which seal. I myself lean towards the graphite rope because it needs no modification to use where the viton seal needs to be sanded a bit before install to remove some ridges on it. This makes me nervous.
The pulleys and hopefully intake manifold are coming off tonight! I'll keep you posted.
Is that the right sending unit? The back where it should go into the wire harness is a round, ribbed "stub." I just watched fbodywarehouse's video on replacing the temperature sending unit and their unit had a clip sticking off it that would slide into a typical wire harness fitting (granted they were working on a 403 in a 78 whereas I have a 400 in a 77. It just got me thinking.).
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another update with questions!
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4255.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4251.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4252.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4253.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4249.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4245.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4242.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4241.jpg)
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not a crack .
timing cover.
you are shop blessed.
that shop is awesome!!!!!!
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intake vacuum question: left circle is a choke stove pipe, lower circle is a vacuum valve and upper is a capped off manifold port, you will need a vacuum diagram once ready to install again. Looking good
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well it's nice to know there are vacuum diagrams available because my previous owner hacked 95% of them off I'd say. it's ridiculous.
Shakerbreaker that crack is normal? Good to know! And yes I am very shop-blessed! Really nice place to work and it has heating for the winters. It's my father's and I'm trying to contain my work area, but you know how cars grow when taken apart!
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I broke down and bought an engine stand. After I'm done I'll let it go to anyone here who needs it because I probably will not be needing it again. Anyway, lining it up and getting it on the stand took me awhile. I had to shim it here and there too. I hope I mounted it right. it is impossible to turn! I had to use a cheater bar to rotate the engine and lift the front end to take some of the stress off the stand.
Tomorrow night the oil pan is coming off and I'm going to see what all needs to be done. The crank may come out and I hopefully start ordering gaskets and other needed parts!
Do you guys all get your corporate blue engine paint from summit racing? I'm thinking I'll only need a pint. I'll only be painting this engine.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4454.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4455.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4456.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4457.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4458.jpg)
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yes the engine stands have to be shimmed to accomodate multiple engine types, i always used spacers have seen some use washers (not recommended)
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Not a lot done tonight. I just got the oil pan off and began loosening the crank shaft up. Hopefully tomorrow I get it out. The rear main indeed seems to have been put in crappily.
Here is a link to the crankshaft pictures
http://s1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/crankshaft%20rear%20main%20and%20gaskets/
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that lower end looks fresh from the pics and the timing chain has been replaced, why are you pulling the crank? the pick up looks to be packed with crap from the previous build and should be replaced, the bearings seem good though from your excellent photos appears to have been assembled a bit dirty but i have seen worse, yes the front cover must come off to remove the crank
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sorry...in case you haven't picked it up yet though I am not savvy with engine internals. What are the pickups? You think those bearings are good joe d? I thought they looked good myself but wasnt sure
I am pulling the crank to replace the rear main because it leaks horribly. I just ordered the graphite impregnated rope seal from butler performance earlier today!
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My new tranny parts (rebuild kit, reverse gears, and fourth gear/input shaft) came in yesterday. Today my special tranny wrench came in so I was able to actually start ripping the muncie up for the rebuild! I got it all apart. Getting the speedo gear off really gave me some trouble but I was able to eventually get it off by placing it through some holes on our table saw with some mounts from our press. Here is a picture of this work place. A barrel full of aluminum cans caught the main shaft and gear cluster when it fell when the speedo gear separated from the output shaft.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/transmission/IMGP4492.jpg)
Here is the torn down muncie. I wire brushed nearly all the housing as best I could to get the excessive crap off to make sandblasting easier.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/transmission/IMGP4493.jpg)
Another pic of the cleaned up housing and tranny parts.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/transmission/IMGP4494.jpg)
Old input shaft, meet new input shaft. The new one is on the right in case you guys can't tell. ;)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/transmission/IMGP4497.jpg)
I have a lot going on for the rest of the week, but I'm hoping on Monday I can sand blast AT LEAST the transmission (I have a LOT of stuff I COULD sand blast right now, but won't need it done for awhile yet). Then I can start the actual rebuild. Do you guys paint your tranny housings or do you just leave them bare cast metal?
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Here are some pics of the bit of work I got done tonight. Where do you guys get your corporate blue for repainting engines from? Also, where do you get the silver for repainting the silver underbody parts on these cars? I'm going to paint my Muncie that color.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4502.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4503.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4504.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4505.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4506.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4508.jpg)
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that is a great blasting box
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As far as shimming goes for an engine stand, I've never done that. I use all 4 mounting points on the block where the trans bolts to. This may ease the rotation of the motor some on the stand. I would have run the trans cases and oil pan thru a parts washer instaed of sandblasting them. I have the worst luck with not getting all the sand particles out before assembly... Looks like a pretty big project though. I think if you can get the crank up a little in the mains to slide the new seal in, that would be great instead of completely removing it. That's a big job... Mike
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As far as shimming goes for an engine stand, I've never done that. I use all 4 mounting points on the block where the trans bolts to. This may ease the rotation of the motor some on the stand. I would have run the trans cases and oil pan thru a parts washer instaed of sandblasting them. I have the worst luck with not getting all the sand particles out before assembly... Looks like a pretty big project though. I think if you can get the crank up a little in the mains to slide the new seal in, that would be great instead of completely removing it. That's a big job... Mike
iceman, I now have the tranny parts sitting in my parts cleaner to get all the remaining sand particles out that may not have come out with the initial cleaning I did when I blew compressed air all over it. In the process of soaking in the parts cleaner the magnet in the bottom of my transmission case came off. Our cleaner is really more like a VERY harsh carb cleaner so it ate the adhesive that holds the magnet down. It seemed like REALLY strong adhesive too! What do you guys suggest I use to re-glue the magnet to the bottom of the trans case? Obviously I want something strong so that magnet doesn't come off and hurt anything in the transmission! I was thinking about using 3M window weld. I have some of it and I know it's super strong. I don;t think trans oil would lower its integrity but I dont know.
So, you think I should take off the timing chain and all that, then lift it a half inch with an engine hoist? I'm just afraid that a piston will pop out if I don't completely remove it. I don't wanna deal with the rings popping out and such.
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I'd look for a drain plug with a magnet on the end of it. Your local NAPA should be able to hook you up. As far as the crank goes, line up the marks on the chain(I'm assuming you have some sort of service manual-not to be insulting here) on #1 firing position, loosen the valvetrain nuts to take pressure off the cam so it doesn't move on you and slide the chain off and hang it on something not to disturb the gears in position. Then pull the main caps and set them on a clean towel in order and by hand or with the help of a buddy you should be able to lift the crank up out of the mains by hand and it should stay there to do what you need to. Make sure all the spark plugs are out and you only have to lift it up an inch or so to service the seal. Right now is a great time to wish GM kept the Pontiac motor in production longer than they did for refinements like they did for the SBC. A ONE piece seal would be great right about now. I am thankful that there's now a one piece oil pan gasket available. Looks like your making great progress on you car. Keep it up. I am envious of what people are getting done on thier rides on this site and yours is no exception. Nobody said it was easy. Great job and keep it up!.... Mike
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epoxy it back where it was as that is where it belongs
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I'd look for a drain plug with a magnet on the end of it. Your local NAPA should be able to hook you up. As far as the crank goes, line up the marks on the chain(I'm assuming you have some sort of service manual-not to be insulting here) on #1 firing position, loosen the valvetrain nuts to take pressure off the cam so it doesn't move on you and slide the chain off and hang it on something not to disturb the gears in position. Then pull the main caps and set them on a clean towel in order and by hand or with the help of a buddy you should be able to lift the crank up out of the mains by hand and it should stay there to do what you need to. Make sure all the spark plugs are out and you only have to lift it up an inch or so to service the seal. Right now is a great time to wish GM kept the Pontiac motor in production longer than they did for refinements like they did for the SBC. A ONE piece seal would be great right about now. I am thankful that there's now a one piece oil pan gasket available. Looks like your making great progress on you car. Keep it up. I am envious of what people are getting done on thier rides on this site and yours is no exception. Nobody said it was easy. Great job and keep it up!.... Mike
iceman, I may send you a PM with questions if I have any in a couple days when I get to the crank and rear seal. Right now I'm rebuilding the Muncie. Hopefully I get out to the shop today and get to paint it. I took it out of parts cleaner this morning and high pressure washed it again to get any remaining grains of sand out. I am confident they're all gone now! I was worried, as you mentioned, that there would be sand left in it which would eventually ruin my bearings and seals...leading to another rebuild :-/ Again, I am now confident that this tranny is spotless of sand and clean enough to eat off! Later when I get out there I want to run a rag over the exterior soaked with SEM solve, tape up the openings and shoot it with a couple coats of cast aluminum paint.
epoxy it back where it was as that is where it belongs
Iceman and joe d, my dad suggested I use JB weld to hold the magnet down. I did some reading and JB Weld is resistant to chemicals, petroleum, and temperatures up to 500F. It sounds like we have a winner! This is what I'll be using to hold the magnet down. I want to set that in tonight to to allow the JB weld to st up for 24 hours. Then tomorrow night (if I don't have to do any homework for an online class of mine) I hope to start putting it back together. That should bring lots of nice pics for you guys!
Thanks for the help and encouragement!
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JB Weld a good choice of epoxy, in the home remodeling business now so i refer to epoxy, when i was in the auto business it was always JB Weld, not to intrude but did i miss something about your lifting the crank or something? I saw Iceman said you should be able to something but missed part of the post, just curious
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JB Weld a good choice of epoxy, in the home remodeling business now so i refer to epoxy, when i was in the auto business it was always JB Weld, not to intrude but did i miss something about your lifting the crank or something? I saw Iceman said you should be able to something but missed part of the post, just curious
Yes, I had planned on taking the crankshaft totally out to clean it and replace the rear main. I had intended on taking the timing chain off, taking the bolts of the connecting rods out, letting the pistons sit in their cylinders, and lifting the crank out. iceman has advised against it.
iceman, joe d, or anyone who can answer...why must he spark plugs be removed to take the crank out and what does iceman speak of when he talks about lining the firing positions up on the timing chain? Doesn't that come into play when I put the crank back IN??
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are the heads off this engine? removal of plugs will release pressure for ease of pistons sliding in cylinder, as for the crankshaft, it is impossible to remove without removing timing chain and rod bolts as for setting on tdc not sure on that one, but you will want to make sure you can see the marks and mark them just in case the cam moves, as you mentioned earlier about the pistons popping out and rings falling off, this will not happen unless the heads are off and you push one up
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are the heads off this engine? removal of plugs will release pressure for ease of pistons sliding in cylinder, as for the crankshaft, it is impossible to remove without removing timing chain and rod bolts as for setting on tdc not sure on that one, but you will want to make sure you can see the marks and mark them just in case the cam moves, as you mentioned earlier about the pistons popping out and rings falling off, this will not happen unless the heads are off and you push one up
The heads are not off. I figured that was why the plugs should be taken out. I realize it is impossible to remove without taking off the timing chain and rod bolts. Well can't the rings pop off if I pull the pistons down too far (like pop off on the oil pan side of the engine)?
As stated several times throughout this thread, I am learning on the mechanical side of the engine and am unsure what marks you guys are talking about. Sorry for my ignorance. I have not looked into this much. You guys are just talking about the cam moving in case I have to re-time the engine. Correct?
Also, my build date on the cowl tag is 12B. I'm assuming this means it was built in December of 76 (keep in mind this is a 77 TA). Does this mean I will need the metallic strato blue for my engine? Will one or two cans do my engine? Does eastwood mix a paint like this? what color were the exhaust manifolds originally? I would like to get that paint from eastwood because I've heard good things about their high-temp paints and I don't want to be doing all this again!
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okay cool,
the chances of the pistons coming out the bottom are slim unless you pull one out, as you pull the rod caps off be sure to mark them and put back on correct rods, then install stud booties to protect the crank journal and slide the piston upward into the cylinder. the marks we are refering to are the timing marks on the crank gear and cam sprocket, these marks line up the cam and yes you will have to set the ignition timing once you are done but you do not want to have the cam timing off, so mark the sprockets once you remove the timing cover and be sure to install them back where they were, usually a small dot on each, the sprockets only go on one way but the cam can move during your work (unlikely) but it can. dont forget the stud booties or any type of thin rubber boot
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well guys did some work on the muncie 2nite. Ran into murphy >:( Really discouraged right now. Can't get the 3-4 hub on right now, don't know if my synchros are on right, and have doubts. Here are some pics. The first pic shows the cleaned and painted case.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/transmission/IMGP4552.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/transmission/IMGP4554.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/transmission/IMGP4556.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/transmission/IMGP4558.jpg)
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Well guys I know so far this has pretty much been a transmission rebuild thread, but it is a large part of the work I have to do to the car. The interesting stuff will start coming in a couple weeks. Then maybe this thread will be a little more interesting. I got a LOT of stuff done on the transmission today, but I hit a wall at about 4 o'clock. When I shift the slider into either first or second it acts like it's in two gears. Hopefully I hear back from lilski through PMs and/or Kevin at the gearbox (btw, the gearbox has unbeatable prices and they have helped me with MANY questions and through emails. I suggest anyone rebuilding a transmission get parts there!) and can resolve this issue tomorrow.
There are a lot of pics I could post, but I'm just posting the final result of today.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/transmission/IMGP4587.jpg)
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spent all night getting my muncie together. Right when I was done I realized something wasn't working because I forgot a piece. I'm so angry. I'm losing momentum and drive because of this transmission. I want to throw it across the shop floor! I'm really wishing I would have paid someone else $300 to do it. This sucks.
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well guys the transmission is almost all apart again because I ordered some seals after destroying some of my first ones from multiple assemblies and reassemblies. I also decided that I do need a new 1st gear. There is no way around it.
Anyway, I also got the harmonic balancer, timing cover, fuel pump, and water pump off tonight. The timing gears and chain look brand new don't they? I don't know anything about this stuff though so correct me if I'm wrong.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/crankshaft%20rear%20main%20and%20gaskets/IMGP4607.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/crankshaft%20rear%20main%20and%20gaskets/IMGP4608.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/crankshaft%20rear%20main%20and%20gaskets/IMGP4606.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/crankshaft%20rear%20main%20and%20gaskets/IMGP4602.jpg)
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it does look new and yes those are seals that should now be replaced, how does the crank look? keep your cool with the tranny
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Chain looks good providing there isn't more thab 3/16" of wiggle in it. Fuel pumps are a mystery and leak when they go bad. I'd paint it up pretty and get it ready to go back on. The 'sleeves', ir the rubber is still soft- as in your fingernail can indent it, it's OK. The water pump. OK, you have a cast impeller-that's a good thing. You can improve the cooling of your Pontiac motor here. It you tap the plate with a dead blow hammer until there is a small gap between the plate and impeller. This is in Jim Hand's book on Pontiac motors and I swear by it. Patience on the Muncie or anything by that matter. This stuff takes time and if it was easy, these cars would be everywhere still. You are doing great. I had my Muncie done and I compliment you on doing your own. I'm in my mid fourties and am happy to tell you that you are doing a great job and I appreciate your efforts! Keep up the good work! Mike
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Chain looks good providing there isn't more thab 3/16" of wiggle in it. Fuel pumps are a mystery and leak when they go bad. I'd paint it up pretty and get it ready to go back on. The 'sleeves', ir the rubber is still soft- as in your fingernail can indent it, it's OK. The water pump. OK, you have a cast impeller-that's a good thing. You can improve the cooling of your Pontiac motor here. It you tap the plate with a dead blow hammer until there is a small gap between the plate and impeller. This is in Jim Hand's book on Pontiac motors and I swear by it. Patience on the Muncie or anything by that matter. This stuff takes time and if it was easy, these cars would be everywhere still. You are doing great. I had my Muncie done and I compliment you on doing your own. I'm in my mid fourties and am happy to tell you that you are doing a great job and I appreciate your efforts! Keep up the good work! Mike
Thanks a lot for the compliments and encouragement iceman! I may get ahold of you through PMs about the water pump modifications when I get closer to dealing with it. I did find this thread about the mod you are speaking of. I have to read more on it though. http://forums.performanceyears.com/forums/showthread.php?t=411256&page=56
A better link yet to information on the mod in case anyone else is interested in this too --> http://www.firebirdnation.com/forums/topic/17258-water-pump-mod/
Well there was a HUGE storm with 90-100 mph winds. We lost a lot of trees, are without power for a week (our generator is pulling the modem, router, PC, etc right now), and are probab;y going to have to take our barn down. It's sad to see it go. I've been busy cleaning up from the storm (it happened Friday night), so I haven't gotten much done this weekend on my tranny and car. Hopefully this week I get a decent amount done. We'll see how annoying it is working on things not having power to work with. Here are just a couple pics of the damage and of my new 1st gear! It was a last minute decision.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/transmission/IMGP4651.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/transmission/IMGP4652.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/transmission/IMGP4654.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/transmission/IMGP4658.jpg)
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well guys almost got the tranny together tonight. I didn't get it done because I went in to start working on an online class assignment I have. Here are some pics though! As always, there are a couple questions associated with some of the pics.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/transmission/IMGP4669.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/transmission/IMGP4672.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/transmission/IMGP4673.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/transmission/IMGP4674.jpg)
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Well guys I'm calling the muncie done! I think I'm more excited about getting the bench cleaned up than actually having the tranny done.
I just ordered over $200 worth of parts and seals from Ames. Tomorrow I want to sand blast a bunch of engine covers, driveshaft, etc. As for now, here's the muncie.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/transmission/IMGP4688.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/transmission/IMGP4687.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/transmission/IMGP4690.jpg)
All I know is that nothing more is being done tonight. The girlfriend and I are going down to country concert to see Eric church and have too many beers!
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Today was a pretty successful day I'd say. I finally got the crank out so I can clean it. Is there anything wrong with letting is sit in parts cleaner for a day and then high pressure washing it?
I also grinded and/or sandblasted my driveshaft (after pressing the U-joints out to make way for the new ones), alternator mount, alternator, water pump, water pump spacer plate, fuel pump, pulleys, pulley plates, harmonic balancer, and driveshaft yolk. Tomorrow I have a lot of crap going on, but I want to start painting this stuff. Should I go with silver or black on the driveshaft? I'm thinking rustoleum matte black because I already have some of that here on the farm! ^_^
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4779.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4717.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4775.jpg)
a pretty sight...
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/crankshaft%20rear%20main%20and%20gaskets/IMGP4763.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/crankshaft%20rear%20main%20and%20gaskets/IMGP4764.jpg)
how should i clean this dirt off the journals?
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/crankshaft%20rear%20main%20and%20gaskets/IMGP4772.jpg)
old rope seal. Being replaced with graphite impregnated one.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/crankshaft%20rear%20main%20and%20gaskets/IMGP4768.jpg)
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take some close ups of the bearings, clean the crank with parts cleaner then denatured alcohol
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a pretty sight...
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/crankshaft%20rear%20main%20and%20gaskets/IMGP4763.jpg)
Is there copper showing on those bearings or is that just oil sitting in them? Hard to tell from the pictures.
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Here are my bearings from the back of the engine to the front. Smith, that is oil sitting on the bearings.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/crankshaft%20rear%20main%20and%20gaskets/IMGP4780.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/crankshaft%20rear%20main%20and%20gaskets/IMGP4781.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/crankshaft%20rear%20main%20and%20gaskets/IMGP4782.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/crankshaft%20rear%20main%20and%20gaskets/IMGP4783.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/crankshaft%20rear%20main%20and%20gaskets/IMGP4784.jpg)
These are the top side of the engine bearings btw. I'm going out now to get pics of the bottom side bearings.
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they do not look horrible, but you have some cleaning to do and get that shop rag out of there, they have loads of lint, seems to be quite a bit of debris so you will want to clean them pretty good and wipe them down with a lint free cloth, then use loads of assembly lube for re-assembly. great pics btw
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can you post some pics of the crank journals? also run your finger nail across the journals to feel for unusual wear
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I'll go get some pics of the journals now and check for wear. I have 5 pics of the lower halves of the crank bearings uploading now (country connections take a couple mins longer than your guys' connections :-/ ), and after that I'll upload the journal pics.
Yeah, I'm pretty lucky when it comes to pictures. We have a great camera here at home, and it comes in handy.
I'm leaning towards replacing the bearings after looking more closely at the bottom halves. Idk if they just need cleaned up and to get some oil on them or if they're shot. I guess I'll let you guys be the judge. Thanks everyone for the help, hints, and suggestions!
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pictured first are the bearings' lower halves. Pictured second are my crank journals (back of engine to front).
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/crankshaft%20rear%20main%20and%20gaskets/IMGP4785.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/crankshaft%20rear%20main%20and%20gaskets/IMGP4788.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/crankshaft%20rear%20main%20and%20gaskets/IMGP4789.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/crankshaft%20rear%20main%20and%20gaskets/IMGP4791.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/crankshaft%20rear%20main%20and%20gaskets/IMGP4792.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/crankshaft%20rear%20main%20and%20gaskets/IMGP4793.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/crankshaft%20rear%20main%20and%20gaskets/IMGP4795.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/crankshaft%20rear%20main%20and%20gaskets/IMGP4796.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/crankshaft%20rear%20main%20and%20gaskets/IMGP4802.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/crankshaft%20rear%20main%20and%20gaskets/IMGP4803.jpg)
I left some of the pics of the journals out because they pretty much all look the same. Thanks for your input guys!
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looks like a very dirty assembly to me, as for the line/groove in the middle that is not a problem as 2 bearings meet, the issue i see if the amount of fine grooves in the one pic of 7-8 cylinder, the pitting and the corrosion. i would without a doubt replace the bearings and get the crank to a machine shop to see if they can polish it, ask the to measure it then see if it can be polished opposed to ground under
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looks like a very dirty assembly to me, as for the line/groove in the middle that is not a problem as 2 bearings meet, the issue i see if the amount of fine grooves in the one pic of 7-8 cylinder, the pitting and the corrosion. i would without a doubt replace the bearings and get the crank to a machine shop to see if they can polish it, ask the to measure it then see if it can be polished opposed to ground under
sounds expensive. I'll call my local o' reily's tomorrow and see who I should get ahold of to get the crank polished or ground under. I'm assuming I have to have him polish them to the same OD and then pick undersized bearings, normal, or oversized based on what the journals' dimensions are after the polishing??
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polishing a crank is inexpensive and once they see it they can determine the next step and bearing size, there are machine shops that specialize in cranks
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polishing a crank is inexpensive and once they see it they can determine the next step and bearing size, there are machine shops that specialize in cranks
I'm going to call O-Reily's tomorrow for suggestions and if they can't help me I'm going to call a mechanic down the road. hopefully they can steer me in the right direction because I have not heard of such shops. Since I am in the country I may have to drive a ways to get to a shop. I'll let you guys know what I find out!
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Well guys, I took my crankshaft to a shop far, far away in the sticks. There is no where immediately around me that grinds and polishes cranks, but I found one about 45 minutes away. It appears that this crankshaft has been ground already. It was ground .010" under standard. The shop told me they will be grinding it .030" under. I have to call them back in the morning because I don't know why they're skipping the .020" under size? I'd rather they take less off than more.
Does anyone here know why they would skip right to .030 under from .010 under? I'm sure none of the scratches are bad enough to where they have to skip directly to .030 and over the intermediate .020 step.
On a more positive note, I supposedly located the correct combination u-joint and ordered it after none of the local parts stores could help me. I also received my order from ames today!
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/crankshaft%20rear%20main%20and%20gaskets/IMGP4808.jpg)
I'm excited to get the engine back together, cleaned, and get this metallic blue sprayed on it!
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/crankshaft%20rear%20main%20and%20gaskets/IMGP4809.jpg)
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keep in mind it is thousandths so some of those aweful scratches could have been to bad get your tape out and look at 1/16th then think about 1/1000 of an inch
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Most will tell you .030 is a maxed out crank.
.030 at rods is max..
10/10 is ideal on a fresh core crank
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Most will tell you .030 is a maxed out crank.
.030 at rods is max..
10/10 is ideal on a fresh core crank
well as it turns out my crank is maxed out...to an extent. I misunderstood yesterday when we were discussing my crankshaft. It turns out that the mains are ground to .010 under right now, so the grinding operation currently being done on them is taking them to .020 under. It turns out the rod journals are currently ground to .030 under. It is good they only need polished because I don't currently have money for a new crank. I will be getting the crank and the new bearings today or tomorrow. I also have some nice parts out for delivery today via UPS and FedEx. I will have PLENTY to do after today and tomorrow! I'll show you guys my new parts. i can't wait to get 'em outta their boxes and on the car. :D
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here are the said parts! 8)
engine mounts, u-joints (one is greasable because it's funky, the other is a non-greasable moog. It was a standard u-joint that I picked up at advance auto.), energy suspension body mounts, and engine mounts. I also picked up a new tranny mount which I didn't picture.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4811.jpg)
Also, after doing a lot of research today, I'm not afraid of having the mains on my crank ground to .020 under. I'm also not too concerned that my rod journals are currently at .030 under. It sounds like all will be well! :)
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well guys I got the crank back today. The journals have been turned and polished. Super shiny! 8) 8) I got new main bearings and new rod bearings too. Can't wait to get them in! I can wait to pay the credit card bill :-\ I also got anxious and opened up some of my metallic blue engine pant from Ames. I painted the timing cover and oil pan. It looks great!
I'll post pics of this stuff the next couple days.
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Keep up the Pics and the work ! I''l be following this one !
JOSH
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Thanks a lot Josh. I hope I start getting you guys interested as I start producing results. Like I said, I will have pictures of some of the metallic blue engine parts I did last night by tomorrow. Hopefully some are up tonight, but on a Friday night drinking often takes precedence for me 8)
I also found that there is a leak in the midplate of my muncie after the assembly. It is on the front midplate gasket that I did NOT put permatex on. I put permatex on one gasket and not the other. Guess I should have. Can i pull the tranny in half, put permatex on, and still use the same gasket or will I be needing a new gasket now too!?
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well guys as promised I have some pictures (for those who care haha). I received my crankshaft back. It's all polished up, and the mains are ground down to .020 under. SUPER SHINY. I also pictures the bearings there. Sealed power is yet another Federal Mogul product that I can not get an employee discount on! >:( How frustrating.
Secondly are my test trials of the metallic blue engine paint (correct for when my car was built in December of 76). I shot the engine pan and the timing cover.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/crankshaft%20rear%20main%20and%20gaskets/IMGP4830.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/crankshaft%20rear%20main%20and%20gaskets/IMGP4827.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/crankshaft%20rear%20main%20and%20gaskets/IMGP4826.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/crankshaft%20rear%20main%20and%20gaskets/IMGP4825.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/crankshaft%20rear%20main%20and%20gaskets/IMGP4823.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/crankshaft%20rear%20main%20and%20gaskets/IMGP4822.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/crankshaft%20rear%20main%20and%20gaskets/IMGP4819.jpg)
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looks much better, you still need to clean it before assembly withlint free cloth
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SWEEEEEEEEET !! Keep 'em Coming!
JOSH
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looks much better, you still need to clean it before assembly withlint free cloth
thanks for the tip joe d! I did plan on doing this of course. I was looking the crank over once I got it home and saw little "chips" in the journal surfaces. I got scared for a second, but upon further inspection I saw that these "chips" were just little pieces of dust in the post-grind oily surface. I will have to get them off before assembly (which may come later today to some extent!)
Yesterday I made no progress because the mid-plate gasket in my M21 was leaking. It took me hrs to get it back together after I split it apart just enough to get some permatex on the gasket.
If you guys ever rebuild a muncie and people tell you it's easy they are f**king liars. I have a cold heart to my M21 after having to put the tail housing on it a couple times. There are hard feelings between us.
Josh, I will indeed keep the pics and info coming. Thanks for paying attention guys!
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Alright guys, here is what the day brought for me: I installed all the rod bearings and got the main crank bearing installation started. I have a questions about the bearings as shown in the first pic below. My old bearings had a central groove and an oil hole in the top and bottom bearings. These new ones have only a groove and channel in one half of each bearing. So obviously I'm assuming the halves of each bearing with the hole goes on the top side of the engine where oil is pumped into it. I looked on oreily's and they pictured replacement bearings with only one half of each main bearing having a groove as well, so I'm guessing the bearings I have are correct. I wanted to check with you guys to make sure though.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/crankshaft%20rear%20main%20and%20gaskets/IMGP4836.jpg)
I installed half of the graphite rear main today as well. The instructions have you drill a hole into the rear main cap and put a roll pin in it. This sticks in the rope seal and holds it in place. I thought this was pretty cool so I took a picture of it. I also sealed it down with permatex ultra grey. The instructions said this was an alternative to the roll pin. I did both.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/crankshaft%20rear%20main%20and%20gaskets/IMGP4832.jpg)
I also shot some paint on the water pump. The bearings and mechanical stuff is pretty boring stuff. I had to shoot something with paint so I felt like I made progress 8)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4837.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4839.jpg)
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yes installing bearings is boring and takes time as i assume you are checking the clearances first, the bearings only go in one way and must be lock to lock, that is the small tab you see, called a lock. pretty self expanatory but does take time
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What does GROB mean?
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What does GROB mean?
??
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What does GROB mean?
Grob is a high-precision automated machining shop my buddy works at in bluffton ohio. They make highly precise machines that machine out incredible stuff. There are videos of a machine they made that machines a globe with the continents sticking out of it and stuff. You may be able to find it on youtube or on their site. It's pretty cool. They're based in Germany. They do business with a lot of companies and are great.
I wondered if anyone would notice that big sticker haha.
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last night I dropped a piece of rubber that was covering a connecting rod bolt down by the camshaft. I had to take the valley pan off to get it out. I planned on taking the pan off anyway, so I guess it was coming. Here is is before the parts high pressure watch, parts cleaner soak, grind, and post-pressure wash.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4848.jpg)
Here is after
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4852.jpg)
If you notice there are some rust holes that ate through the valley pan. I knocked very hard on it around the little holes and they did not open up anymore, so I think the rest is solid enough. Can I braze these shut, put rest preventative, and then paint as normal? Is this a bad idea?
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4851.jpg)
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You will spend a ton of time trying to work that valley pan into shape, and they're usually full of crud between the panels. You are going this far, might as well do it right and not look back. Also, a graphite rear main or a neoprene seal will be best for the rear main. check out Ace's place for the valley cover and graphite rear main:
http://www.pacificperformanceracing.com
Or allpontiac.com for a neoprene rear main. Might be a good time to get thier one piece oil pan gasket too, just not sure who makes/carries it.
From what I understand, the new material rope seals are made from, they don't seal worth a hoot. HTH, Mike
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Just went through all 5 pages. Very nice work. I did want to point out that since you sand blasted the oil pan you will now need to drill out the spot welds on the baffle and clean the sand out. If you do not do this all you hard work on that engine will be for nothing. I had to do it to mine. It is not hard to do and you do not need to drill all the way through the spot welds. Clean it out then spot weld it back in. Also clean the plus and the threads.
That Strato blue engine paint from Ames is amazing isn't it? Used it on my build. I have a 75 400 in my 78 and thought I would do it justice. Love the color. Ames did a good job.
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Justin is correct if you have blasted this valley pan then it needs to be taken apart iceman has a good point if you can find a new one
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Just went through all 5 pages. Very nice work. I did want to point out that since you sand blasted the oil pan you will now need to drill out the spot welds on the baffle and clean the sand out. If you do not do this all you hard work on that engine will be for nothing. I had to do it to mine. It is not hard to do and you do not need to drill all the way through the spot welds. Clean it out then spot weld it back in. Also clean the plus and the threads.
That Strato blue engine paint from Ames is amazing isn't it? Used it on my build. I have a 75 400 in my 78 and thought I would do it justice. Love the color. Ames did a good job.
thanks for the compliments! I soaked the oil pan in parts cleaner and then thoroughly high pressure washed it immediately after the soak. I thought this would have taken care of any sand remaining under the baffle. I think I'll double check it before I break the welds. I will feel up around the baffle with a wet cloth and see if I collect the slightest bit of dirt. Thus far I have been completely confident with my cleaning methods and managing to get all the sand out. I have followed the forementioned procedure in blasting and cleaning the oil pan as well as the transmission housing and other parts like the timing cover that connect to the inner mechanics of the car. I will definitely follow up on this.
And yes, I love the blue paint! Did you prime your engine with anything before the paint job? I saw your engine in your thread and loved it. I hope mine turns out that well.
You will spend a ton of time trying to work that valley pan into shape, and they're usually full of crud between the panels. You are going this far, might as well do it right and not look back. Also, a graphite rear main or a neoprene seal will be best for the rear main. check out Ace's place for the valley cover and graphite rear main:
http://www.pacificperformanceracing.com
Or allpontiac.com for a neoprene rear main. Might be a good time to get thier one piece oil pan gasket too, just not sure who makes/carries it.
From what I understand, the new material rope seals are made from, they don't seal worth a hoot. HTH, Mike
$150 seems outrageous for a valley pan. They're made of complete junk. A buddy has an old 400 laying in his shed. I'll check that valley pan before I buy a new one or work on mine. However, I'm guessing his is in rough shape too because It's been sitting outside in this shed for God knows how long. Thanks for the input guys, hopefully I get the crank in tonight or in the next couple days. Then more interesting progress such as painting the engine will start happening!
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Well I had my oil pan tanked and pressure washed out too. Being that sand is all different sizes it likes to get jambed in the tight areas like where the baffle meets the pan on the back side. Also it will jamb right around the spot welds. I couldn't see any sand in there but once I took the baffle out there was enough to fill a thimble. Just trying to look out for your best interest.
Yes I did prime. It is not nessesary but I did and wet sanded the primer down so there were not any rough spots. That engine paint covers well but it cover even better over primer. I cleaned everything really well and then sprayed prep spray on it and wiped in all down.
I have a valley pan. It is the one that has the smaller opening where yours is rusted. It's very clean. Somone has already expressed interest in it. I'll see if they still want it. $35 + shipping. Pm me it you are interested.
Keep up the awesome job. Oh and what did your tranny build cost you for materials and what was replaced? Thanks.
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I'll pry end up removing the baffle and putting it back in as you say, but I wanted to avoid this since I have already painted the pan. I may look up under it with my micro-snake camera. If I see anything I will try sucking it up with a very small tube jimmy rigged onto a shop-vac. I may try a very small tube on the air compressor too to blow it out. If this does not work I will be forced to remove the baffle.
Where did you get your epoxy primer justin? It seems like many of them come in a gallon size and I think a quart would be PLENTY for just painting an engine.
I am VERY interested in the valley pan if it is sturdy. I consider mine to be crap, so if yours is in much better shape than mine I will probably take it. Can you get me pics ASAP?
When I rebuilt my Muncie I bought a "premium" upgrade kit that came with all the gaskets and such. It also came with the counter gear shaft, input nut retainer cover, and torque sliders (for shifting gears). I also needed to get a new 4th gear, reverse gear, and 1st gear. I spent around $600 and got everything from thegearbox.org. If you accidentally type in "thegearbox.com" you'll be brought to a site for a gay community, so don't make that mistake as I did haha. Anyway, thegearbox is cheaper than ANYONE else I found and SUPER SUPER fast. I'd always have my stuff the next day after ordering, granted they're in Michigan and I'm in NW Ohio.
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HAHAHAHAHAHA
That was a good laugh about the .org/.com. Thanks for that heads up. LOL
I will send you the pics of valley pan. It is completely solid and completely clean. Let me check and see if the other guy is still interested.
Also $600 sounds like the going rate. I was quoted $400 for the rebuild and 2nd gear replacement for a t-10 transmission. If I can't get my car done. during the driving season i'll be rebuilding the trans and rear end this winter.....not that we really have a winter though.
If you are able to get up under the baffle to have a good look and don't see anything then you might be good. The baffle came right out and my pan was also painted. It is amazing how well the Ames paint holds up to heat I torched the crap out of it and it never bubbled or flaked and even discolored. Very happy with it. A quart of epoxy is way plenty. Just need the activator for it. I think everything was like $38 for mine. I had some left over from a previous project. Don't know if you have a good compressor or gravity feed gun but a small compressor and a siphon feed gun works well for epoxy. Siphon feed gun can be purchased at tractor supply,walart,lowes,home depot for like $30. Usually has a 1.8-2.0 tip which is what you need.
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(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4116.jpg)
Now here are the pictures concerning my questions....
1. What is this on my steering column? A neighbor told me this was for a automatic shifter on the column. Where would this have come from? I'd like to think that he is wrong because if he's right it means there is some incorrect piece of crap that was used to piece stuff together.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4115.jpg)
Hey what size of tire are you running on the back of your TA?
My 1979 TA/SE has the same lever on my steering column and mine is an original 4speed car...I am wondering if my column has been replaced or tampered with also?
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My 1979 TA/SE has the same lever on my steering column and mine is an original 4speed car...I am wondering if my column has been replaced or tampered with also?
no its on all of them, its for the neutral safety switch and reverse lights.... you are just missing the linkage that typically goes to them... most of the time removed when headers are installed....
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Hey what size of tire are you running on the back of your TA?
My 1979 TA/SE has the same lever on my steering column and mine is an original 4speed car...I am wondering if my column has been replaced or tampered with also?
What size tire am I running? A BIG A$$ one! Honestly I don't know. They do seem too wide though. Often I think it looks like they're going to pop off the rim. They look mean as hell, especially from behind. I'll look up how to determine tire sizes based on the numbers, look at my tires tonight, and hopefully get back to you guys on that.
My 1979 TA/SE has the same lever on my steering column and mine is an original 4speed car...I am wondering if my column has been replaced or tampered with also?
no its on all of them, its for the neutral safety switch and reverse lights.... you are just missing the linkage that typically goes to them... most of the time removed when headers are installed....
Thanks for the input eroc. Now I can tell my neighbor that he doesn't know anything (which I will enjoy because he thinks he is a car guru). I also know I have more stuff to buy -_- What exactly does it do for the reverse lights? I thought mine worked. Maybe I should check this out though because I'm guessing they don't now that I have this info!
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I'm late, but ,if you scroll down to the bottom of the page here,,project beer run (http://www.301garage.com/forum/index.php?topic=3068.275) you can see how he attacked his valley pan
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I'm late, but ,if you scroll down to the bottom of the page here,,project beer run (http://www.301garage.com/forum/index.php?topic=3068.275) you can see how he attacked his valley pan
thanks turbo, but it looks like he started with a very sturdy valley pan and pretty much just cleaned and repainted it. I should break my spot welds and clean it out, but we'll see what happens. I have small holes in my valley pan and will have to patch these holes. In project beer run, the guy has no holes in the valley pan.
Here are the current questions I have. I went to install my timing cover and its gasket set, but I don't know where half the stuff goes! The pictures show my concerns. By the way, the two rings circled on the top of the second picture are rubber. Any help would be appreciated.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/crankshaft%20rear%20main%20and%20gaskets/IMGP4862.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/crankshaft%20rear%20main%20and%20gaskets/IMGP4861.jpg)
Also, the eccentric for the fuel pump that mounts on the camshaft timing gear does not have a specified torque in the service manual. It just says put it on "tightly." Should I use any loctite?
I'm reading scary things about getting this timing cover/intake/water pump to seal up right. Are there any special procedures I need to follow?
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first pic... no thats an open hole for oil to kinda "splash" on the timing chain....
second pic, the one small rubber O goes on the intake where it meets the timing chain cover
the two bigger ones go on the inside of the water pump area on the timing chain cover... its actually in the pic where the smaller one is sitting....
the two blue plugs I completely forget where they go... and everything else seems sealed up so you should be fine, maybe someone else can chime in... usually Fel-Pro throws those in so that they can "hold" a gasket in place
as far as installing it... loosely start all your bolts... then I normally go the oil pan bolts, then the intake to water pump bolt.. then the remaining bolts, but you will need your water pump on first.... and make sure you clearance it properly....
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Hey what size of tire are you running on the back of your TA?
My 1979 TA/SE has the same lever on my steering column and mine is an original 4speed car...I am wondering if my column has been replaced or tampered with also?
What size tire am I running? A BIG A$$ one! Honestly I don't know. They do seem too wide though. Often I think it looks like they're going to pop off the rim. They look mean as hell, especially from behind. I'll look up how to determine tire sizes based on the numbers, look at my tires tonight, and hopefully get back to you guys on that.
Yes if you could look at one of the back tires and let me know what numbers are on there it would be great....I don't think they look to wide at all.
I appreciate you checking on that.
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first pic... no thats an open hole for oil to kinda "splash" on the timing chain....
second pic, the one small rubber O goes on the intake where it meets the timing chain cover
the two bigger ones go on the inside of the water pump area on the timing chain cover... its actually in the pic where the smaller one is sitting....
the two blue plugs I completely forget where they go... and everything else seems sealed up so you should be fine, maybe someone else can chime in... usually Fel-Pro throws those in so that they can "hold" a gasket in place
as far as installing it... loosely start all your bolts... then I normally go the oil pan bolts, then the intake to water pump bolt.. then the remaining bolts, but you will need your water pump on first.... and make sure you clearance it properly....
Alright, I thought that was an oiling hole. I also was pretty sure that smaller rubber ring was for the intake to water pump/timing chain cover mating surface. I'm still a little lost on where the two bigger rubber rings go even after reading what you said a couple times. Could you save a quick copy of my pic to your desktop and circle where they belong on paint? You could email me the paint file to jschroe6@rockets.utoledo.edu so you don't have to upload the picture anywhere.
Also, just to clarify, those to big rubber rings aren't replacement rubbers for the metal slider tubes that go in the timing chain cover/water pump area are they? If you look in the picture I already have new SS ones installed in the cover. They came with the rubbers too.
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yes what you said is correct...... they go under the SS tubes you have installed... but if you have new ones, no need to worry..
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Hey what size of tire are you running on the back of your TA?
My 1979 TA/SE has the same lever on my steering column and mine is an original 4speed car...I am wondering if my column has been replaced or tampered with also?
Fever, here are the numbers from my rear tires: P295/50R15 105S M+S
yes what you said is correct...... they go under the SS tubes you have installed... but if you have new ones, no need to worry..
eroc, I think I understand you, but I thought I would take a picture of them installed and make sure we were on the same page.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/crankshaft%20rear%20main%20and%20gaskets/IMGP4864.jpg)
Here I have some other questions as well....
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4865.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/transmission/IMGP4867.jpg)
This is a door hinge:
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP4870.jpg)
Does anyone have an answer for the fuel pump eccentric's torque? Again, the manual just says tighten, where other things specify a torque. My assumption is that it means what it says. Get the eccentric bolt tight, but it doesn't have to be torqued to a specific number. Does anyone have any info on that?
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use loctite on the eccentric and you will find the donut gasket for exhaust at a local muffler shop, shifter is a PITA and door hinges may require a helping hand or building a block set up to hold door without scratching or denting
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use loctite on the eccentric and you will find the donut gasket for exhaust at a local muffler shop, shifter is a PITA and door hinges may require a helping hand or building a block set up to hold door without scratching or denting
I was wondering if I would need loctite on the eccentric. Thanks for the helping hint on where to get the doughnut.
What is a pain about the shifter? Do I simply need to yank the actual shift left out somehow once the bolts are out? How do i get the individual shift pieces out? I know I will need help on the door, but is it not smart to do one hinge at a time like I plan? Will removing the hinges (even one at a time) mis-align the doors and make a big job in any way for me?
Btw joe d, I believe I will be putting the oil pan and timing covers on tonight. This will put an end to my crankshaft project. That is, I will be buttoning it up if someone will help me determine that the two large rubber rings go where I have them shown in the last set of pictures I put up. I'll keep you informed.
I wish I would've checked compression BEFORE I took the engine out. Then maybe I would have replaced any piston rings and components if needed. I'm about to place a HUGE order with Ames for door panels and such though, so I'll be running out of money. If I need piston rings and stuff the engine, even though I do not like it, may have to be taken out again in 5 yrs or so. I haven't driven the car enough to see any tell tale signs of bad piston rings.
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Well I did NOT get the engine buttoned up tonight. I clear coated some of the timing chain cover bolts, put the fuel pump eccentric on, and helped my dad braze my valley pan. I still have to grind it down a bit, clean it up, resoak it in parts cleaner, and high pressure wash it. Here is the brazing job my dad did tonight though. We have all the holes patched up!
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4872.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4871.jpg)
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tonights another night keep pluggin
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Hey what size of tire are you running on the back of your TA?
My 1979 TA/SE has the same lever on my steering column and mine is an original 4speed car...I am wondering if my column has been replaced or tampered with also?
Fever, here are the numbers from my rear tires: P295/50R15 105S M+S
Awesome thanks!
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just prime and paint the valley pan now. Looks solid to me. Sorry the other one wouldn't work out for you.
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just prime and paint the valley pan now. Looks solid to me. Sorry the other one wouldn't work out for you.
I'm wrestling the idea of just proceeding as you said. It's fine. Thanks a lot for offering the deal to me though. I'm sorry it didn't wok out too! Can anyone comment on the placement of the rubber rings in the timing cover? I placed them under the two stainless tubes that are in it. Please look back on the last page to see what I mean.
I have pics of the oil pan and timing cover finally on! I want to get pics up tomorrow.
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i cant believe someone on this site will not chime in on this, i will find an exploded image for you in a minute
THANK YOU ALL YOU PONTIAC EXPERTS
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here you go Jordan
(http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q634/jrtopfuel/WaterPumpExploded.jpg)
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yes what you said is correct...... they go under the SS tubes you have installed... but if you have new ones, no need to worry..
it was already stated here.....
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Well i was just confirming eroc. I still wasn't sure after that post. We;;, I've managed to get the engine buttoned up now. I painted the harmonic balancer and put it on today too. I put some jjbweld over some weak spots in my valley pan brazing. Tomorrow I will prep it for paint with SEM paint prep and shoot it with my Ames paint.
I also cleaned out my exhaust manifold bolt holes and cleaned the bolts up. They go in real smooth now. I cleaned my starter off tonight too. What color is it supposed to be? Black or silver? I would like to paint it the correct color. I also need to know what color the flywheel cover is. Is it the same blue color as the engine?
I want to start cleaning up the intake manifold for paint. It has EGR. If I sandblast it is there great potential for sand to be caught in the manifold? Obviously I can not have this.
Here's the good stuff, the pics!
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4887.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4894.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4888.jpg)
I also need to know what this gasket is for. It came in the timing cover gasket set. I put a gasket on each side of the spacer plate in the water pump. I had no idea where this was suppose to go so I left it out. Is it for some special optioned water pump that I do not have?
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4895.jpg)
SPECIAL THANKS THUS FAR
At this point in my work on the car I'd like to mention some of you guys and give you special thanks. Geno has helped through PMs with my questions on crankshafts and internals. LilSki helped me A LOT with my M21 rebuild. He directed me where to get parts, experiences with his rebuild, and all other sorts of questions. Most recently joe d has offered me a tremendous amount of help with engine internals, crankshafts, crank bearings, assembly, where to find help on the net, etc. I truly appreciate it. Thanks a lot guys. Thanks to everyone who has offered me help, encouragement, and advice.
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you are welcome, i am sure that gasket is a 1 of 2 option, yes you can bead blast the intake WITHOUT the egr valve on and then give it a real good bath and blow it out extra good, as for the starter i would look at a new one on a website as i am certain the center body cover is black, the snoot is raw aluminum or pot metal and the rear section was metal
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Well tonight I finally painted up the valley pan. It still looks rough :-/ thank God its rough spots aren't visible from the front of the car. I also disassembled the intake manifold. I then blasted it, the exhaust manifolds, flywheel (I'm going to get it resurfaced so blasting it didn't harm anything), air filter holder top, and a splash guard thing from my wheel well (I'm missing the left one, can anyone help me out with that!? ;D)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4899.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4900.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4901.jpg)
I have some questions about the pieces off my intake in the pic below. Does Ames offer replacement gaskets and parts for the egr intakes? I do not believe I saw anything in their catalog. It looks like the vacuum tube that comes out of one of the metal pieces is not removeable and it is pinched off! Can I get this some place? Can I get the gaskets? Also, is the broken piece in the lower right of the pic what people refer to as the "vacuum tree"?
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4902.jpg)
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The broken blue plastic part is a thermal vacuum valve...you can buy a new one at an auto parts store. You can also buy intake and EGR gaskets there too; you will have to buy some gasket paper to make a new one for your choke heat stove, that's the metal loop thing you have there. You can buy some metal tubing and make a new one yourself
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The broken blue plastic part is a thermal vacuum valve...you can buy a new one at an auto parts store. You can also buy intake and EGR gaskets there too; you will have to buy some gasket paper to make a new one for your choke heat stove, that's the metal loop thing you have there. You can buy some metal tubing and make a new one yourself
thanks a lot bob. What about the egr components themselves? IS that vacuum pipe pressed into the egr mount (lower left piece)? It's pinched off and will need to be removed or replaced if it can't come out.
I don't think I need a new heat stove, I will need the new gasket for it though.
Thanks for the info on the other pieces!
I also should mention that if you look at the picture of the blasted intake you can see a bolt sheared off where the stove pipe goes in. Easy outs and reverse drill bits have not been working. Er....what a headache. Still have to try some other stuff.
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Can anyone tell me what the piece is in the lower left of the picture with the egr pieces? It was between the egr and the intake. I can't seem to find it. Do I need it? Can I get a new egr and not put this piece on? How do I eliminate the egr altogether?
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if i am not mistaken it is a cool air plate you can delete egr if you can find a blank cover that will be thick enough for the clamp to grab
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The water pump gasket you were asking about is for a '68 and OLDER Pontiac motor. No worries. The broken intake bolt? I like to grind them flush to the surface. Center punch them and drill them out with a tap-sized drill, starting with a 1/8" bit, then going to a tap sized bit and run a tap by hand in with a little oil on it and go by feel. This will take a little bit and cleaning the junk out a few times will be expected. I recommend Eastwoods brush on stainless paint for your exhaust manifolds. Best coating I have found and lasts pretty long. The only other choice is to have them ceramic coated and if your going to go that far(down the road) I'd recommend a set from Ram Air Restorations. A set of ceramic gray coated RA manifolds and be done with it. Better performance with a factory look- like I said, down the road, if this sounds good. Nice save on the valley pan and you hardly see it under the manifold. No worries at the back end of the motor either. You hardly ever will be able to see it once installed in the car with the air cleaner and hood installed. Looks great and keep up the great work! Mike
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I'm still a little lost on where the two bigger rubber rings go even after reading what you said a couple times.
Also, just to clarify, those two big rubber rings aren't replacement rubbers for the metal slider tubes that go in the timing chain cover/water pump area are they? If you look in the picture I already have new SS ones installed in the cover. They came with the rubbers too.
I only just saw your question about the water sleeve rubbers. Your thought was correct that they are just new rubber rings to go inside the water sleeves, if you were going to re-use your old sleeves. You have new sleeves with new rubber already in them, so those 2 extra rubber rings would not be used.
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As for deleting the EGR, here's a good thread with several ways of making a block-off: http://transamcountry.com/community/index.php?topic=50299.0
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As for deleting the EGR, here's a good thread with several ways of making a block-off: http://transamcountry.com/community/index.php?topic=50299.0
The water pump gasket you were asking about is for a '68 and OLDER Pontiac motor. No worries. The broken intake bolt? I like to grind them flush to the surface. Center punch them and drill them out with a tap-sized drill, starting with a 1/8" bit, then going to a tap sized bit and run a tap by hand in with a little oil on it and go by feel. This will take a little bit and cleaning the junk out a few times will be expected. I recommend Eastwoods brush on stainless paint for your exhaust manifolds. Best coating I have found and lasts pretty long. The only other choice is to have them ceramic coated and if your going to go that far(down the road) I'd recommend a set from Ram Air Restorations. A set of ceramic gray coated RA manifolds and be done with it. Better performance with a factory look- like I said, down the road, if this sounds good. Nice save on the valley pan and you hardly see it under the manifold. No worries at the back end of the motor either. You hardly ever will be able to see it once installed in the car with the air cleaner and hood installed. Looks great and keep up the great work! Mike
thanks to the both of you for the help! Well I picked up a lot of stuff from Ames today at the Pontiac nationals in Norwalk. I got a clutch, door panels (coming in the mail), gaskets, upper oil dipstick tube, door weather strips, etc. Pretty good time watching the drag races. I also got a little painting done yesterday too.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/IMGP4918.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/IMGP4915.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/IMGP4914.jpg)
A question I have is this: is the flywheel cover suppose to be blue like the engine? What color is it supposed to be? Thanks.
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Semi-gloss black on the inspection cover. Here's a little tip for you (or anyone for that matter)with the thermostat housing gasket. ever have one that leaked no matter what you did to seal it? Here's one I did a few years back and is THE cat's meow...Hit your local parts store and ask for the O-ringed gasket for a small block Chevy. You will have to elongate the holes towards the thermostat a bit(til it lines up with your housing, and no more). Snug down and BINGO. OK, it's a $13 or $15 gasket(gasp), yet no more leaky... It'll pay for itself in saving the time it takes to fix the leak of a failed, thin gasket. Just my 2 cents on this...
Love that color on the motor! Mike
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Semi-gloss black on the inspection cover. Here's a little tip for you (or anyone for that matter)with the thermostat housing gasket. ever have one that leaked no matter what you did to seal it? Here's one I did a few years back and is THE cat's meow...Hit your local parts store and ask for the O-ringed gasket for a small block Chevy. You will have to elongate the holes towards the thermostat a bit(til it lines up with your housing, and no more). Snug down and BINGO. OK, it's a $13 or $15 gasket(gasp), yet no more leaky... It'll pay for itself in saving the time it takes to fix the leak of a failed, thin gasket. Just my 2 cents on this...
Love that color on the motor! Mike
thanks mike. I'm assuming the whole, large, bell-housing is semi-gloss black too? Not the color of the engine?
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I grinded the engine down and have the side pictured wiped down with brake cleaner. Tomorrow I'll get the other side and wipe the whole thing with SEM solve (paint prep). Then I get to shoot it down with the sexy metallic blue!
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4923.jpg)
Can anyone tell me the color of the bell housing? Is it supposed to be blue like the engine or a different color?
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coming along nice
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after getting the engine cleaned last night I shot the block with VHT high temp primer and the exhaust/spark plug area of the heads wit eastwood's SS colored exhaust manifold high temp heat. I did this in an attempt to prevent the ugly exhaust paint burn off from occurring. I plan to put my Ames engine blue over this. I started out painting the exhaust manifolds with a brush, but I hated how it looked. After switching to a spray gun I was pleased! I have a couple pics. Hopefully I can get them up for you guys tonight!
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painted manifolds
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4930.jpg)
painted engine mounts
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4932.jpg)
painted oil adapter and carb stove pipe
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4931.jpg)
eastwood coated exhaust side of heads
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4926.jpg)
the ingredients
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4927.jpg)
The eastwood paint still feels really soft and un-dry yet (not wet, but I can tell it isn't nearly cured). Should I be afraid to put the blue over top yet?
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I'm getting the firewall and subframe ready to paint. I've decided to replace the brake lines with a set from inline tube and I'm replacing my body mounts. The more I think about it, the more I lean towards taking the subframe completely off and cleaning everything correctly with a wire wheel. How do I make sure it's lined up correctly though if I do this?
Since these pictures have been taken the valve covers have been primed and painted blue as well. I found that without priming the engine with the VHT primer the paint would not stick. After figuring this out the painting process continued smoothly on the engines.
I tried painting the pulleys for my engine black since this, but it appeared that there was dirt in the paint!! I cleaned the gun several times by running thinner though it. No matter what I do it appears there is dirt in the paint. I even ran it though another gun! I don't know where this crap coulda came from. Could there be ceramic remnants in the gun from the eastwood paint?
I got my PUI pre-assembled door panels in the mail after being unable to find good condition plastic upper door rails to repair my existing door panels. I'm stoked about these. I have always considered door panels to be the crown jewel on any build.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4935.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4934.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4933.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP4938.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/interior/IMGP4942.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/interior/IMGP4941.jpg)
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I tried painting the pulleys for my engine black since this, but it appeared that there was dirt in the paint!! I cleaned the gun several times by running thinner though it. No matter what I do it appears there is dirt in the paint. I even ran it though another gun! I don't know where this crap coulda came from. Could there be ceramic remnants in the gun from the eastwood paint?
Are you using a paint strainer? Could be clumps of crap in your paint. The cleaner you are, the cleaner your paint will be. Buy a paint suit, they are cheap and disposable. So I would strain your paint, get a paint suit and tack off your parts before you spray.
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I tried painting the pulleys for my engine black since this, but it appeared that there was dirt in the paint!! I cleaned the gun several times by running thinner though it. No matter what I do it appears there is dirt in the paint. I even ran it though another gun! I don't know where this crap coulda came from. Could there be ceramic remnants in the gun from the eastwood paint?
Are you using a paint strainer? Could be clumps of crap in your paint. The cleaner you are, the cleaner your paint will be. Buy a paint suit, they are cheap and disposable. So I would strain your paint, get a paint suit and tack off your parts before you spray.
I have the little filter on my gun in the can to filter it. My dad also mentioned straining it prior to putting it in the gun for application. How might a paint suit be beneficial for me? Thanks a lot for the input btw!
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I tried painting the pulleys for my engine black since this, but it appeared that there was dirt in the paint!! I cleaned the gun several times by running thinner though it. No matter what I do it appears there is dirt in the paint. I even ran it though another gun! I don't know where this crap coulda came from. Could there be ceramic remnants in the gun from the eastwood paint?
Are you using a paint strainer? Could be clumps of crap in your paint. The cleaner you are, the cleaner your paint will be. Buy a paint suit, they are cheap and disposable. So I would strain your paint, get a paint suit and tack off your parts before you spray.
I have the little filter on my gun in the can to filter it. My dad also mentioned straining it prior to putting it in the gun for application. How might a paint suit be beneficial for me? Thanks a lot for the input btw!
Don't count on the filter on your gun to filter small particles. You can get paint strainers for cheap at your parts store. I think I got 25 the other day for 3 bucks. Paint suit does two things. It keeps dirt or fibers that might be on your clothes from falling in your paint, and keeps paint from getting on your skin and in your pores. When you are done using it put it in a zip lock bag to keep it clean. I always take my air hose and clean off the first few feet of it before I paint as well. Most people let their air hose fall on the ground and get dirty when they are working on things. Clean it and keep it off the ground when you paint. There are several things you can do to get cleaner paint jobs. You always want to strain your paint though. Get a pyrex cup to mix your paint and strain it as you pour it into your gun. If it isn't a two part type paint you still want to strain it as you pour it into your cup
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here I will reveal the depths of my stupidity: Before painting on saturday I sandblasted parts. needless to say, I had sand on my body. I'm guessing some of the stuff fell into the paint or hardener when I was mixing it and got in the paint gun can. I hope I did not contain my whole store of rustoleum and hardener :-/ I also hope its out of my gun. I will need to strain my paint now. >:(
After such an event, I can see why you recommend the paint suit!
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not stupid just a mistake, i would strain everything really well and clean the gun after complete disassembly
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Not stupid, smart people learn from their mistakes.
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I put my intake manifold gaskets on and placed my intake on. This hole is visible! What is this? I'm guessing I have the wrong intake manifold gasket?am I suppose to get a "blocked d-port" gasket or something? What is the ames part number for that gasket IF that is indeed what I need. I don't remember this showing when I took it apart....
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/SANY0001.jpg)
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Heat crossover
What gasket are you useing???
that can be filled in or your gasket should be notched to seal that
Depending upon year will determine which gasket to use
Sent From My Fancy Little Thinking Box
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Your gasket should have looked like this.....
(http://img.tapatalk.com/60f84cee-0ca9-b783.jpg)
And should line up with the head
Sent From My Fancy Little Thinking Box
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Heat crossover
What gasket are you useing???
that can be filled in or your gasket should be notched to seal that
Depending upon year will determine which gasket to use
Sent From My Fancy Little Thinking Box
what does it do? What do you mean it can be filled in? With what? If I cover it with gasket material it still isn't being covered by weight. I'd think something should be over this hole with a gasket around it. Do i have the wrong intake manifold or something?
Your gasket should have looked like this.....
And should line up with the head
Sent From My Fancy Little Thinking Box
what do you mean it should line up with the head? You mean the intake should overlap/cover that hole? When I took this picture the intake was properly placed because all the bolt holes lined up. I have the bolts in while this picture was taken. Should the intake be wider and go out to the valve covers more? Do I have the wrong intake?
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(http://img.tapatalk.com/60f84cee-125e-1b41.jpg)
The bottom hole where the gasket goes around is the heat crossover, and the gasket you had on their is the one you want to be using.
(not actually the same one, but that style) lol
They can be filled in with jbweld but any gain would be minimal.
The part you see now, and above the crossover, is a blind hole.
Sorry, hard to tell from your pic
I think that is normal.
Im sure someone who knows more will chime in but i think your good.
Sent From My Fancy Little Thinking Box
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so that hole just sits open like that!? what if dirt gets in it?
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I believe so yes
Its a blind hole, nothing there, doesnt do anything
Pontiacs idea of air cooled??? lol
I dunno
Sent From My Fancy Little Thinking Box
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since I'm back at school now I have less time to work on my car, but I had some time this week. I took the subframe off today, grinded all the crap off it, and primed it with rustoleum heavy rust primer (even though I had 98% of the rust off). Here are some pics and some questions with them.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/subframe%20removal/IMGP5095.jpg)
This next picture concerns me. It appears my subframe is bent a bit. The passenger side is 9/16" higher than the driver side. Did someone have too big of an engine in this car at one time, torque the crap out of the frame from gunning it and stuff? Or is this not a big deal. If it is cause for concern can I simply bend the frame straight?
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/subframe%20removal/IMGP5093.jpg)
Here is how I measured the current position of my subframe in relation to the car.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/subframe%20removal/IMGP5075-1.jpg)
Where do you guys jack the car up without the sub frame on?
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/subframe%20removal/IMGP5100.jpg)
Does my steering collar seem alright? This is the part of the steering wheel that connects to the rag joint. Is it in good shape? Could it be causing any slop in steering?
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/subframe%20removal/IMGP5063-1.jpg)
Is this rag joint in ok shape? Doesn't seem that there is any slop in it on the bolts that go through it.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/subframe%20removal/IMGP5062.jpg)
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looks okay in pic
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looks okay in pic
What are you referring to joe d? The uneven subframe (biggest concern), or the rag joint?
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sorry Jordan, my computer was a snail this morning and i only saw the rag joint, as for the sub frame you will have to check the geometry to detrmine that
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sorry Jordan, my computer was a snail this morning and i only saw the rag joint, as for the sub frame you will have to check the geometry to detrmine that
I will definitely check it out when I get home this weekend, but from looking at what's in the fisher body manual I'm 99% sure they're supposed to be the same height off the ground. How can I straighten this? I'm thinking of using some blocking and jackstands to push it down with our bucket-tractor.
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Are you sure your floor is level? I'd be sure before I started tweaking anything. If you were going to do any "tweaking" I would blot it up to the body and take it to a frame shop and have it checked. This thing was altogether when you bought it, correct? If it was really that far off your front sheet metal would have never lined up correctly.
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Are you sure your floor is level? I'd be sure before I started tweaking anything. If you were going to do any "tweaking" I would blot it up to the body and take it to a frame shop and have it checked. This thing was altogether when you bought it, correct? If it was really that far off your front sheet metal would have never lined up correctly.
You mean my fenders and such? I am going to take some other measurements first. These will be anything I can think of that might cause a slight tilt such as one tire being flatter than the other. I do not think such an issue could cause this though as it appears there is a bend, not a certain amount of "unlevelness." A simple check with a level could reveal if this is a bend or not. I'm also searching this forum and looking at other people's subframes to compare to.
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Yes your fenders. Were they on the car and did they fit and profile the door correctly? If your frame is that bent, your front sheet metal would not fit for crap.
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If its only out 9/16" you are fine, when you bolt it to your car it'll straighten back out
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Yes your fenders. Were they on the car and did they fit and profile the door correctly? If your frame is that bent, your front sheet metal would not fit for crap.
Yes. They were on and fit correctly. I assumed if something was seriously wrong with the chasis from torquing it out or something I would have known before seeing this bend. I thought 9/16" seemed close to the realm of being too much though. Thanks for the input guys. I hope to get some more. I haven't been able to find awesome pictures of subframes laying on the ground, but of the ones i did find on here and on ebay it appeared that most were perfectly level from side to side. However, I did spot one or two that had one fork of the sub frame slightly higher than the other. In one case it was the driver side of the subframe while the other example was the passenger side of the car like mine.
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also, I'm looking to make my steering very tight. After research it appears that the close ratio ws6 box is merely a 2.5-3 turns to lock. Instead of looking around for a ws6 steering box can't I just buy one of these reman'ed ones from o'reily's? Also, from my understanding, if I remove the upper cover on my steering box and the gears are the same, then I already have a close ratio steering box. Is this correct?
I'm looking to get super tight steering like the new cars today have. I'm thinking replacing the rag joint and steering box will help me obtain this.
But before I go blow $120 I should ask, can a lot of play be adjusted out of the steering box? Is there a section of this in the owners' manuals? Gosh I wish I had my disk with me right now so I could look it up!
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jordan, yes you can adjust play out of a box, but if you are looking for the steering of todays standard you will have to go to a rack and pinion, if you got the tolerance down to .0001 in your gear box you will still have 4 tie rod ends to contend with and take away from that tolerance
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jordan, yes you can adjust play out of a box, but if you are looking for the steering of todays standard you will have to go to a rack and pinion, if you got the tolerance down to .0001 in your gear box you will still have 4 tie rod ends to contend with and take away from that tolerance
ah...right you are. The 2.5-3 turns to lock is probably the best I'm gonna get then isn't it? I'm gonna check if that's what I have when I get home. How can you check if the steering box is shot? Should the box begin to turn everything AS SOON as you turn the input shaft? Mine has 1/8 turn or so of play before it starts to turn the steering components.
I've been doing a lot of research here and on the internet, but it seems like everyone has different thoughts on what to do with and how to analyze the mysterious steering boxes! Of course, I'll get a better idea when I'm home this weekend and can actually look at the box.
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you can feel the play in the input and output shaft with 2 large screwdrivers on either side of shaft and pry gently, hard to explain without showing, also be careful adjusting a worn box as thy will bind
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you can feel the play in the input and output shaft with 2 large screwdrivers on either side of shaft and pry gently, hard to explain without showing, also be careful adjusting a worn box as thy will bind
So I stick a screw driver at the base of both the input and output shafts. I wiggle each screwdriver. If the box is worn either the input or output shaft will wiggle where they go into the box?
Please correct me if I'm wrong in understanding your post. As always, thanks a lot joe!
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NO. You use a screwdriver or small pry bar at 12 o clock and 6 o clock or 3 and 9 and see if you have side to side movement at output
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thanks for clearing that up joe! I have a couple more questions and pics of the motor coming together.
First off, I have a holley carb which requires a carb spacer adapter because the mounting holes on the intake do not line up with the holes on the intake. This makes the shaker too close to the hood. The hood rubs the shaker and I don't even have a seal on the shaker at the moment. Should I mill the carb spacer down to 1/4"? It's currently 1" thick. I guess another option is to have the qudrajet rebuilt, but I don't wanna spend that money.
Are the base pieces of my corse support supposed to be curved up like this?
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/Nose%20and%20core%20support%20removal/IMGP5143-1.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/Nose%20and%20core%20support%20removal/IMGP5142-1.jpg)
Can this floor pan rot be replaced now with the subframe off? I've read in some places that you shouldn't do that with the subframe off cause the body may warp. I'll only be putting in a patch if I do this.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP5134.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP5137.jpg)
Painted subframe. SHINY
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/subframe%20removal/IMGP5125.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/subframe%20removal/IMGP5124.jpg)
Engine coming together. Painted pulleys and other such hardware today and yesterday.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP5133.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/engine%20pull/IMGP5132.jpg)
I also noticed some small holes in my firewall near the heater box. I can't believe how thin it is! The firewall can't be more than .025" can it? Seems chintsy to me and I wish they were made thicker. Looks like I'll have to patch the little holes. Maybe if the firewall wasn't so thin it wouldn't rot so easy! Is that that hard to figure out GM?! :P haha
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please cover those intake holes , Something could fall in there and that would be trouble . I recommend some tape strips !
JOSH
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please cover those intake holes , Something could fall in there and that would be trouble . I recommend some tape strips !
JOSH
yup, intake is covered with an old shirt. I just took it off for the purpose of the pictures! Thanks for the suggestion!
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as for the carb i suggest the q-jet as the shaker is always an issue, i am not sure on the core but looks normal to me and as for repairing the floorpan without subframe, i never heard such a thing but maybe someone like 4speed would know better, josh has a good point, always tape tight the intake as to no allow any debris including dust/dirt
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I figure I have this nice holley carb so I might as well try to use it. I'm going to see if I can use a mill here at school and mill it down to 1/4" or so. If I can pull the carb 3/4" closer to the engine I think I'll be fine with the shaker/hood interface and be able to get the shaker seal on correctly. If the University of Toledo isn't going to let me use their mill (which would be bs since I pay good money to go to their engineering school), I will ask my girlfriend's dad to use their mill. I should be able to get it milled down for free either way!
I did just look up carb rebuild kits on ebay for the quadrajet. Look like $30-$35 is the going rate for a rebuild kit. I would do the rebuild myself. I've heard it's not too bad doing one. I guess I'll have to go that route if the milling option doesn't gain me enough clearance. I don't want to modify the air cleaner box. I checked it out and that looks like it'd be a lot of work and might not turn out right.
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I was grinding away on the bottom of the car and found a bunch of bondo and floor pan work. I pulled the carpet up to see if the job was done right and it has been rubberized on the inside too. I have to grind this away. In order to keep the interior clean during this process I am taking it all out. I am guessing the pans aren't put in correctly based on all that I've uncovered so far, so I'm probably about to become an expert plug welder and body man. I hope I don't determine that the rocker panels, kick panels, etc. all need replaced. Jeffrey Tyree, the crook that sold me my car, is a lying sack of sh1t. Must be related to Bob the Bandit. Here are some pics of what I've found and where I'm at.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP5187_zps1a9a9bd9.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP5186_zps2d436ee6.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP5184_zps5911ac71.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP5183_zpsde3a569c.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP5178_zpsa5859102.jpg)
Also, the build date of my 77, according to the cowl tag, is 12B (second week of december 1976 I'm assuming). The back of this odometer is March 28, 77. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing my buddy Jeff switched out the odometers to try and make it seem like this was a low miled car.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP5177_zpsbbd96a1d.jpg)
Other than that does anything else look wrong with the cluster? Does the schematic look alright? I did have problems with the tach not returning all the way to 0 when the engine was turned off. Has anyone else experienced this?
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP5175_zpsd206e330.jpg)
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When I get home and to my computer ill write up what I see, doesn't look that bad to me
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I await your analysis eroc. The floors may not look that bad...I wonder what the rubber coating is hiding.
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ok looking at your pictures, they all look pretty decent to me, but then again I know first hand pictures can hide a lot....
first pic, cant tell from the angle, you would be better off by looking at the underside, where you are pointing to could be the gussets for the frame mounts... as well as the second picture, looks to me like a solid floor, but if there is bondo, seam sealer, and undercoating on it, well could be alot of junk holding it together, again, look underneath, typically time isnt spent on areas not normally seen.... so it should help in breaking down good/bad areas
your fourth pic, looks 100% normal and factory aside from the two possible spots of rust... which if you could get a better pic it would help....
your build date I would assume the second week of dec of 77.... like you have a later built car, unless you have the build sheet with the "born on" date.... so your cluster would be fine...
so all in all, not too much to worry about thus far, get some better views of the floors, under side, etc... take a wire brush if you want to really find problems to the floor pans, if you just have some pinholes I wouldnt worry about replacing the metal.. either just weld up the holes, or you can actually use a fiberglass filler. but only if its pinholes... if you have major cancer then it will need cut out....
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eroc if you take a look at the previous page you can see some of the rusty patch work that was done. Also, when taking out my seats a couple of the nuts that are to be in the floor frame supports are broken loose. I can see that pans have been put in in these areas. The people before me most not have taken the time and car to cut in from above and weld a nut down so you don't have to worry about it spinning when you replace or remove the seats. It was just thrown together. I hope to grind some this Monday. Hopefully then I can get some more pictures of a clean floor and reveal any hiding crap. Gosh I hope this works out. If I do need pans has anyone dealt with motor city high performance?
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oh ok, i see it now... well the only way to tell if its bad damage or not, is your are going to have to strip it down......
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Continued stripping the interior this weekend. Didn't have a lot of time with all the homework I have to do.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/interior/IMGP5211.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/interior/IMGP5227.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/interior/IMGP5230.jpg)
Do the manuals that hitman sells contain vacuum line mapping for the interior AC components (I have the Cd, but I am currently at college and the cd is at home)? My vac lines are missing or totally molested. Can I pick replacement line up at O'Reily's? I'm gonna have to get most of the ductwork too because mine is missing. Once I get the back seats out this weekend I will be stripping away the rubber, paint, and crap to see just what all needs replaced in the floor pans.
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having fun now
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having fun now
Yes too much fun! I much prefer my car in this state than on all four wheels joe :-p haha
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If someone doesn't post by tomorrow AND if I remember I'll take a look at the cd for the interior vac diagram. And I think oreilly's sells vac lines but if not I know Ace Hardware around town has all different types of vac line sizes. At least the one in point place in toledo does.
And if you decide to use the qjet (which I switched to from a Holley) I'd consider getting your parts from Cliff Ruggels. It can be a little pricy depending on what you get but he knows his qjets and what parts you would need. If you decide not to do the rebuild yourself I took mine to a local shop in downtown toledo that used my parts (Cliff's parts) and charged me 100 bucks for the rebuild and cleanup. Looks like a brand new carb.
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Transamcountry forum/electrical has the vacuum info you need.....
sent from iphone #6 Elite using japatalk with premium airwaves for a greener earth
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http://transamcountry.com/community/index.php?topic=40078.0
There's the link. Thanks gilbertsta for the help and thank you too b_hill_86. So I can just send this guy pics of my carb and he'll tell me what I need? It seems like some other vendor was also suggested to me for this...may have been cliff. I know there was a website for the vendor with rebuild kits around $35.
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Cliff has a couple different rebuild kits but like he did with me he can make you a custom kit depending on what you need. Mine included an electric choke conversion, metering rods, float and some other stuff I can't remember off of the top of my head. His website is http://www.cliffshighperformance.com/ and he's in mt vernon, OH. Very knowledgable and helpfull. If you think you wanna tackle the rebuild you could pick up Cliff's book too. I got mine from barns and noble. If you want more info about it let me know.
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Cliff has a couple different rebuild kits but like he did with me he can make you a custom kit depending on what you need. Mine included an electric choke conversion, metering rods, float and some other stuff I can't remember off of the top of my head. His website is http://www.cliffshighperformance.com/ and he's in mt vernon, OH. Very knowledgable and helpfull. If you think you wanna tackle the rebuild you could pick up Cliff's book too. I got mine from barns and noble. If you want more info about it let me know.
Thanks man. It's a long way off, but I'll archive his and get back to you when the rebuild comes.
I stripped some rubber paint, bondo, and fiber glass from areas of concern . Pics and questions are below.
Here is a pic of the passenger toe board area. it appears that I'm going to have to somehow cut out the toeboard. The problem is that the subframe body mount is behind where I will be cutting. I do not want to alter the position of this mounting hole. Since this part is mainly flat I'm thinking of cutting it out and replacing it. I don't want to get a whole toeboard.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP5239.jpg)
Here is under the rear passenger seat. How in the heck did these pans rust out? It surprises me. I will need to replace both rear pans.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP5252.jpg)
A look inside the car. Notice all the ground down white bondo stuff.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP5243.jpg)
I forgot to circle this in red, so bear with me. If you guys can't see it I'll have to edit the picture and repost it. There are two layers of metal here and the the top has a hole in it. This is right where the rear passenger seat belt buckle screws into the frame. Will this be included in a replacement pan or will i have to patch this with sheet metal?
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP5250.jpg)
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Where it screws in is actually part of the frame. The floor pan actually sits on top of it. And that part isn't available new that I've seen
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so when I buy floor pans it is only the pan on the VERY bottom with now sidewall metal? Seems kinda stupid to me. I guess I'll have to get some galvalnized sheet metal and make some patches then. Another question....are the outer most front seat bolts supposed to have nuts that are welded in place in the frame? Mine did not and the nuts were hard to access.
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dfgdfg
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Thanks jupiter bandit. I hope to be hearing from you on here and through PMs as I tackle this project. It appears my pans have LOTS of patching. It seems to be an okay job. I would not have done it how they did, but heavy metal was used and the welding seems good. Should I cut the whole things out and replace completely correct myself since I'm this far?
I'm looking at either this option and using sheet metal to patch my toe boards:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1975-1981-Camaro-RH-Floor-Pan-Made-In-USA-/120993302234?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Year%3A1977|Submodel%3ATrans+Am&hash=item1c2bc346da&vxp=mtr
And this option...comes with toeboards, but will cost me $600 :-\
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1970-1981-Camaro-Firebird-Full-RH-Floor-Pan-Includes-Toe-Board-Made-In-USA-/110958259434?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Year%3A1977|Submodel%3ATrans+Am&hash=item19d5a0acea&vxp=mtr
The first option is pry my best bet....I guess my questions are mainly about analyzing the problem. I don't know what's good and what's bad. My gut tells me to replace it because I don't know what is all hiding under the rubber and bondo. Can I safely replace these pans without door braces and a rotisserie? Finally, if I do go about replacing pans, do I cut them out flat against the rocker? You hinted at this in your first video Jupiter (around 2:50), but I wanted to make sure....Seems like a big job.
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The full pan is awesome. I never seen that one. DOESN'T LOOK LIKE THE RIGHT YEAR!!! MAYBE 1970-1973. I can't really tell by your pictures how much rott you have. It's easier if you replace a whole pan than small individual patches. a lot less welding that way.
If you look underneath and it looks weak or you have a bunch of little pin holes then I would say just cut it out and put the whole floor in. $600.00 seems like a lot but if you cut your welding in half and half the amount of time the couple of hundred dollars is well worth it.
Here's a tip. Use a sawzall to cut out the whole floor pan. Use a air chissel to pop the spot welds. As for the forward mount under the toe board, don't worry about it. It is firmly connected to the rocker and the upper firewall. When you do your toe board only cut out the bad.
I'm making another video of my toe board install. I'll show you the danger areas and how easy it is to cut it out and replace it.
Remeber, I never did this kind of metal work before and the only trouble I've had is finding the time to do it. lol
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The full pan is awesome. I never seen that one. DOESN'T LOOK LIKE THE RIGHT YEAR!!! MAYBE 1970-1973. I can't really tell by your pictures how much rott you have. It's easier if you replace a whole pan than small individual patches. a lot less welding that way.
If you look underneath and it looks weak or you have a bunch of little pin holes then I would say just cut it out and put the whole floor in. $600.00 seems like a lot but if you cut your welding in half and half the amount of time the couple of hundred dollars is well worth it.
Here's a tip. Use a sawzall to cut out the whole floor pan. Use a air chissel to pop the spot welds. As for the forward mount under the toe board, don't worry about it. It is firmly connected to the rocker and the upper firewall. When you do your toe board only cut out the bad.
I'm making another video of my toe board install. I'll show you the danger areas and how easy it is to cut it out and replace it.
Remeber, I never did this kind of metal work before and the only trouble I've had is finding the time to do it. lol
Which doesn't look like the right now jupiter?
well a lot of the rot could be fixed with small little patches with the exception of the pans under the rear seats. The whole floor has been patched in the past and seems to be okay now. I am wondering to to correctly relocate seats and such if I do this.
And you didn't use a drill on the spot welds but an air hammer? I'm guessing you used a pointed tip? Sounds like a good idea.
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The full pan with the toe boards is not right for a 77-78
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The cross rails will relocate the seats. you don't have to worry about that. Just dont cut the seat belt mount out for the front seats. or the rear seats for that matter try to go around them.
The seats bolt into the cross members. Try to save the old pan that you cut out. you can lay it on top of the new one after its installed to locate 2 of the seat holes. no big deal if you cant/ I'll add it to my video.
I used a flat bit in my air chissel. but if you can see where your spot weld are use a spot weld bit. I bought a couple from harbor frieght and they worked perfect.
Definitely cut along the rocker. do not remove the full lip.
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The cross rails will relocate the seats. you don't have to worry about that. Just dont cut the seat belt mount out for the front seats. or the rear seats for that matter try to go around them.
The seats bolt into the cross members. Try to save the old pan that you cut out. you can lay it on top of the new one after its installed to locate 2 of the seat holes. no big deal if you cant/ I'll add it to my video.
I used a flat bit in my air chissel. but if you can see where your spot weld are use a spot weld bit. I bought a couple from harbor frieght and they worked perfect.
Definitely cut along the rocker. do not remove the full lip.
I figured I could line up a new pan over an old one to locate the seat mount holes, but the problem is my pans are so heavily patched you can't tell whats what. I don't trust that the current seat mounts are perfectly correct. When I pulled the seats the front right mount on the passenger side was lose because the nut in the frame rail was not accessible with a wrench to hold when tightening. It was off towards the rocker panel a bit, so all one could do to tighten the nut to hold the seat down was reach into the frame rail and finger tighten it. Shouldn't the nut be directly visible in the frame rail hole? That would be my guess.
I am thinking I'm going to make a 0 angle bit from a bit I have laying around home for drilling out spot welds.
Is it wise to cut out my old pan BEFORE ordering anything so I know exactly what I need? I'm thinking that is the route I'd like to take.
I plan on cutting out the pan at the base of the tranny tunnel, alllll the way forward to where the pan meets the toeboard. I will then cut the pan carefully away from the subframe mount making sure not to hurt the mount. I will cut against the rocker and kick panel, all the way tight against the rocker (should I leave any lip off of the rocker or cut flush and flat against it? I guess I am uncertain what you are talking about when you say "do not remove the full lip on the rocker.), around the rear frame rail (where passenger seat belts mount), and back up along the tranny tunnel to where I started. I'll make sure to leave plenty of metal to overlap with on the tranny tunnel. It is not rusted so I shouldn't have to cut any of it out.
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If you can give yourself 1/4"-1/2" off the rocker. LOL don't cut your crossmembers. Cut the bottom of the tunnel up to the toe boards and when you get to the back floor pan cut out the bottom only. Worry about the rear seat pans later. one thing at a time. It should be impossible for you to move your seat. So locating it is not a problem. The mounts are caged nuts in the crossmembers.
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If you can give yourself 1/4"-1/2" off the rocker. LOL don't cut your crossmembers. Cut the bottom of the tunnel up to the toe boards and when you get to the back floor pan cut out the bottom only. Worry about the rear seat pans later. one thing at a time. It should be impossible for you to move your seat. So locating it is not a problem. The mounts are caged nuts in the crossmembers.
Good thing you told me to leave a 1/2" otherwise I woulda cut right against the rocker. DO I need to worry about cutting spot welds any place other than on cross members? Can't I just cut everything besides the members without worrying about spot welds? Also, I knew the seat mounts shoulda had cage nuts! Mine must not have been replaced when the moron previous owners replaced the pans.
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I haven't done my driver side yet but if I remember there is a emergency brake cable mount that needs to be attended to.
Just drill out your spot welds along the crossmembers. Stay away from the brace under the rear floor. refer to my video about the brace in the back wehre the demple is along the rocker.
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My best advice, order your pan, then size it up and only use what's necessary. If you want to remove at the rocker that's fine, it looks like a little bu more professional job is all, under the rear seats isn't reproduced so be careful, the repops only go an inch or so up from the back seat foot area.... Other than that you got some good advice
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crap...so I'm gonna have to make the part under the rear seats outta sheet metal? Crap...ugh. Nothing easy! I measured up the firewall area for thickness as that was the only place I could gain access to see metal thickness. It appears that the pans, firewall etc. are .035-.039". Based off this I decided that I will be getting 19 gage sheet metal for my patching, and not for the rear under seat pans. Another question just came to mind: Is this weld through primer available at places like O'Reily's and is it to be used where ever seams between original metal and new are made? Thanks for the help!
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It looks like the $600 full pans you found have the rear under seat. Not sure if it's the same. You can always find a guy parting out a shell. I paid $75 for both of my rear seat pans.
Not sure what Eroc022 was saying "If you want to remove at the rocker that's fine, it looks like a little bu more professional job is all"
If you remove at the rocker? If he means drill spot welds and actually remove the whole pan. I wouldn't do it again. You would have to remove both crossmembers and that's a lot of work to re align the supports and the possibitlity of losing the strength in the rocker itself. If you stay 1/2" off you can get under it with a grinder and smooth out your weld so it will disappear when painted.
Make sure you weld from the top, not from underneath. a lot less grinding.
EROC022, What is the BU? In, " If you want to remove at the rocker that's fine, it looks like a little bu more professional job is all "
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crap...so I'm gonna have to make the part under the rear seats outta sheet metal? Crap...ugh. Nothing easy! I measured up the firewall area for thickness as that was the only place I could gain access to see metal thickness. It appears that the pans, firewall etc. are .035-.039". Based off this I decided that I will be getting 19 gage sheet metal for my patching, and not for the rear under seat pans. Another question just came to mind: Is this weld through primer available at places like O'Reily's and is it to be used where ever seams between original metal and new are made? Thanks for the help!
I hope this helps,
Do not make this technical, Buy the correct year year full pans. Cut out the bottoms of your pans in the car per my video, drop the newpans in and screw them down to the crossmebers, use a thin blade and cut out the pans as one piece. Make sure you screw the corners and anywhere its not laying flat. Then you'll be able to remove the excees piece and begin spot welding
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I thought you said the full pans with toe boards (which also has under rear seat) were not correct for the car though. There was someone on here who purchased pans from the link I posted and was putting them in...can't seem to find that information though. I'm still looking for who forwarded me to that company to see if they tried the pans.
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What I said is the pans you showed me with the toe boards were inccorect.
What I am saying is buy the 1977 full pan with out the toe boards and with out the rear seat pan.
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If you look at my video you will see which pans I bought....
$99 per side from Ames Performance
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i just did full 77" length left and right and trunk in my 80 and have to say NEVER AGAIN not to mention an a$$hole removed the originals and folded shop so had to finish what someone else started, was a nightmare to get crossmembers lined up and attached, also a bitch to get back to rockers. i would listen to Jupiter
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i just did full 77" length left and right and trunk in my 80 and have to say NEVER AGAIN not to mention an a$$hole removed the originals and folded shop so had to finish what someone else started, was a nightmare to get crossmembers lined up and attached, also a bitch to get back to rockers. i would listen to Jupiter
Alright. Well coming from two members I have to say I'm convinced. I will not buy the full length boards from sherman and I will instead buy full floor pans along with other used portions such as toe boards and under rear seat pans. Sound like the best course of action my friends?
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yes
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yes
Sorry jupiter. I purhcased a fulll length board that includes toes and rear underseat pans. I'll take some pics. Hopefully I get some time to work on it this upcoming weekend. We may still be harvesting next weekend though.
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Not a problem. I hope they work out for you. I'm just too particular with my car. It's a curse. I wish I could have used a full pan but they don't make one for a 77.
I can't wait to see it. I can say I was highly motivated today and started the pan on the driver's side. Once I'm done with the pans I cna paint the bottom of the car and move on to my subframe and rear end. I'm hoping to have it painted in the spring.
Keep those updates coming
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I hope to get to cutting the pan out this weekend, but we may still be in the fields. The pan I ordered supposedly only has a little different space where the cat goes. My car doesn't have a cat so I'm not worried about it.
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it'll drop in the same.
My advice, cut out the whole floor area leaving the side walls of the old pan and just drop that sucker in on top. Once you do that you'll feel a lot better about the job. then take your time cutting out the side walls for a perfect fit.
I used a sawzall to cut the bulk of it out.
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I hope to get to cutting the pan out this weekend, but we may still be in the fields. The pan I ordered supposedly only has a little different space where the cat goes. My car doesn't have a cat so I'm not worried about it.
Your are going to find out the pans are different... where the front section of the rear frame is, and I think the front crossmember will be different, on the passenger side.....
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I hope to get to cutting the pan out this weekend, but we may still be in the fields. The pan I ordered supposedly only has a little different space where the cat goes. My car doesn't have a cat so I'm not worried about it.
Your are going to find out the pans are different... where the front section of the rear frame is, and I think the front crossmember will be different, on the passenger side.....
So what does this mean for me? What will have to be altered? Should I see if I can cancel this order? They'll probably be really mad at me, but I have to do what I have to do I supposed. The people from sherman said that if I didn't have a catalytic converter I would not have to make any modifications to the pan.
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The only difference I know is the pans you got are for a 70-74. It doesn't have a hump because they didn't use a converter. So you'll have more leg room is all. The toe boards will look different but should fit all the same.
Year one used 1970-1974 pans in their 77's and said they worked no problem.
You are fine. Keep what you got and just press forward. It's a floor pan, no one will see it and it will fit no problem.
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I'm OCD, so I went out of my way to get a real 77 SE. My OCD makes it tough because I must have original everything. I wish I could use 1970-1974 pans. It would have been easier. So when I try to do something it's overly perfect. Every seam matched up on my install. That I am happy aboput but it took me way longer than it should have.
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The only difference I know is the pans you got are for a 70-74. It doesn't have a hump because they didn't use a converter. So you'll have more leg room is all. The toe boards will look different but should fit all the same.
Year one used 1970-1974 pans in their 77's and said they worked no problem.
You are fine. Keep what you got and just press forward. It's a floor pan, no one will see it and it will fit no problem.
I have worked on installing and seen the year one cars being assembled.... you have to modify the areas I mentioned... the cat hump alters the front body crossmember, where the seats bolt, thats why the 70-75 cars have different seat brackets, frames, floors, etc... big differences when you add it all up.... even on shermans site it says youll have to alter the crossmember, and swap a section of the pan IF you have a converter....
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Eroc, when you say "modify" do you mean cut and move cross members or do you simply mean bang the crap outta the pan until it fits? Since I do not have a converter I should be fine correct? I do NOT want to do that and jeopardize the structural integrity of the vehicle.
Jupiter, I have been battling OCD on perfection with my vehicle too. It's a big hindrance for me because I'm in college for another 8 months and funds are tight. Making sure everything is perfect gets to be expensive. However, with these pans having all new metal outweighs the loss of not being totally original. I will be able to get both pans (all new metal) for only $40 more than if I would buy new full mid pans, used 30 yr old rear under-seat pans, and used 30 yr old toe boards. I see huge benefit in that IF the pans fit correctly and no serious modification is needed. Thanks for your help and input Jupiter, eroc, and everyone else.
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well where the floor pan meets the front pocket of the leaf spring/frame/rocker area, I think the 70-75 pans were bent a little different, and in some places were a bit more narrow than the correct pan.... as for the cross member, I think the 76-81 cross members sit higher than the earlier 70-75 to make room for the converter "hump"
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So, I'm going to have some hammering to do :-[ I think I can do it. I just hope it doesn't turn into a huge freaking headache. All I know for certain is that these cross-members will not be moved. I can NOT tolerate that. These pans do not come with seat bolt holes cut in them already correct?
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no the holes are not in them. Some of them you can see through the bottom of the crossmember 2 of them you'll have to measure and cut.
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mine had th seat bolt holes from Sherman, but FYI the spread was off and had to drill 2 new ones, 2 were on and 2 were off
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Just got the passenger pan. I thought the rear underseat pan seems a bit more shallow than it should be, but maybe now. What do you guys think? It is the first picture. The seatbelt mount holes and seat mount holes are in the pan already. I hope this works, like I've said 100 times, I hope I get a chance to see this weekend!
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/replacementpanrearunderseat.jpg)
toeboard and front section
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/replacementpantoe.jpg)
full shot...yea, I picked it up in my van
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/replacementpanfullview.jpg)
Also, these pics were taken with my phone, so I apologize for their lesser quality compared to my normal photo postings. I don't think they turned out that bad though.
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I think it looks good.
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Yeah that does look pretty shallow like the replacement pan I have pictured. I tried looking back at the pictures of my own car, but there is a lot of flash reflection in them and I could not see the depth of the pan as clearly as I can in your pics Jupiter. I hope the rest lines up well. From what I could see in my flash flooded areas the rest of the pan seemed very similiar!
When I'm finally able to get these pans in and am able to locate the rear seat hold down clips, I may have to get back with you on their exact placement.
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I got a tip on welding those bad boys in.
1st make sure your weld area is nice and clean (NO RUST OR PAINT)
2nd Use .023 wire. I found out it welds a lot nicer and it doesn't burn through.
3rd Do not weld to much in one spot. It will warp your pans. Weld about a 1/2" at a time no more than 3/4"
I wish I knew this earlier. I would have been done a lot sooner.
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I got a tip on welding those bad boys in.
1st make sure your weld area is nice and clean (NO RUST OR PAINT)
2nd Use .023 wire. I found out it welds a lot nicer and it doesn't burn through.
3rd Do not weld to much in one spot. It will warp your pans. Weld about a 1/2" at a time no more than 3/4"
I wish I knew this earlier. I would have been done a lot sooner.
Thanks a lot jupiter. I HOPE i get to this point and get to actually use your words of advice this weekend!
While we're here, I have been wondering if I have to cut the holes out for the drain plugs. Or do I just leave them as stamped markings and NOT install drain plugs?
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the drain plugs were only used for the factory to drain the primer out of the car when they dipped them.... no need to cut them out if you dont need to...
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well eroc you were right! There seem to be some fitment issues with this full floor pan. What should I do. In my thoughts, I see the following possible options:
1.) try to sell floor pan and buy a fulll mid pan with used toe boards and rear underseat pans.
2.) Modify this pan. No idea what kind of cutting this will require. Looks like some areas will need to be bent for this too.
3.) Modify braces to accommodate this pan.
What are some other options. I'm afraid to cut more of the pan's lip off (lip that gets welded to rocker) in case I have to end up getting rid of this. Here are some pics.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP5346.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP5345.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP5344.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP5348.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP5353.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP5352.jpg)
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It's a shame that YearOne made it sound like they fit no problems. Obviously eroc was right
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Another option I've thought of is to cut out the middle of the floor pan that does not fit. I can buy this piece from Ames, ebay, etc. That Is not a hard part to find. I could sell the middle on here to a guy who needs the pan for his 76. How does this sound? Essentially, I'd be parting out the middle of this full length floor pan!
My father thinks I should call Sherman and try to return this piece because all I've cut off is the edge lip. I have not altered anything major on the pan that will take away from installation in another car.
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Full 74-76 pan.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP5358-1.jpg)
incorrect 74-76 portion cut out and correct 77 portion of pan put in.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP5359.jpg)
Rear underseat pan with small patch on wall that comes down to pan. I hope I can still mount my rear seat backing correctly.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP5433.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP5430.jpg)
Still gotta weld the toe board welds down
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP5425.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP5434.jpg)
Outside and under the car.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP5435.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP5438.jpg)
I have one question at the moment, the welds on the outside/underside of the car have some little pitting in them where the weld did not naturally fill in to the same exact depth. I prefer to not go over the entire weld on the entire pan around it all. Should I just take a thimble full of bondo and rub it in the pits in the welds under the car? Or is this kinda a half @$$ way of doing things?
This was all butt-welded in. Made it take FOREVER and was stressful, but my welding skills have significantly improved from all this! If anyone needs the mid pan I cut out for a 74-76 let me know. I'm gonna be putting it up for sale this week sometime.
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Fantastic Job. You are ahead of me now.
As for the weld. You can either use the metal Bondo and smooth it out or you an hit it with the welder.
On mine I am going to try hitting it with the welder first and see what happens
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I would use seam sealer.
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I would use seam sealer.
You would use seam sealer on the outside of the car Elz?
I think you may end up looking into other options Jupiter. I tried hitting some of my little pits with the welder. It's hard to get them. Sometimes they're very difficult to fill or you creat other little pin prick divets. I am thinking of using bondo. It won't take much, like I said, a couple thimble fulls if that. Any large irregularities or unevenness I am going to fill with the welder, but the little pin pricks are hard to get. So the bondo is looking more friendly.
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I would use seam sealer.
You would use seam sealer on the outside of the car Elz?
I think you may end up looking into other options Jupiter. I tried hitting some of my little pits with the welder. It's hard to get them. Sometimes they're very difficult to fill or you creat other little pin prick divets. I am thinking of using bondo. It won't take much, like I said, a couple thimble fulls if that. Any large irregularities or unevenness I am going to fill with the welder, but the little pin pricks are hard to get. So the bondo is looking more friendly.
Yes I would use seam sealer (3M 08308). If you feel like you have to smooth it out with filler I would still not use Bondo. Fiberglass filler is what you put over welds first. That is mainly on an area where you would want to smooth out an exterior panel like a quarter patch. "Bondo" or Body filler is the last thing I would use on the underside.
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I'd use seam sealer on the rocker seam.
As for the butt weld along the tranny tunnel and so forth I've seen all the top shops smooth the whole bottom of the car out with body filler. They didn't use fiberglass. I'd use a light weight body filler and then sand it down smooth. If they are just pin holes use a finishing glaze. make sure you spray a sealer primer on the bottom after your finished. You don't want moisture absorbing into the filler.
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If you want to smooth out your welds on the floor I would strongly suggest using Fiberglas filler first. Regular lightweight filler next to straighten and feather.
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problem with fiberglass is it doesnt fill pin holes well
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The fiberglass filler is just used for the first layer over the weld, there isn't a need to feather it out, just grind and shape a little, then use lightweight body filler to feather and straighten. The fiberglass is for filling pinholes in welds and holds up much better to moister than body filler. This is if you feel you have to straighten the underside of your car. Me personally, if it was a car I was going to drive, I wouldn't feel that comfortable with body filler on my floors with the possible flexing. Maybe some other guys on here have done it and had good luck?
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The fiberglass filler is just used for the first layer over the weld, there isn't a need to feather it out, just grind and shape a little, then use lightweight body filler to feather and straighten. The fiberglass is for filling pinholes in welds and holds up much better to moister than body filler. This is if you feel you have to straighten the underside of your car. Me personally, if it was a car I was going to drive, I wouldn't feel that comfortable with body filler on my floors with the possible flexing. Maybe some other guys on here have done it and had good luck?
Are you guys talking about a fiberglass body filler like this?
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_x_22987847-P_x_x?cm_mmc=ACQ-_-Google-_-enhancedRM-_-22987847&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=22987847&ci_gpa=pla&ci_kw={keyword}&gclid=CLGQnp3jgLQCFYs7MgodgQEAbA#utm_source=acq&utm_medium=google&utm_campaign=enhancedrm&utm_content=22987847
I also like the seam sealer idea. I may finally be taking you up on your offer to borrow your gun Elz. Does your seam sealer get hard? I'm using a different 3m sealer on the inside of the car.
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That may be right but the picture looks wrong. This is what I use, you can also get it in a smaller can because you wouldn't need a gallon. http://www.google.com/shopping/product/17007639055399557030?q=fiberglass%20filler&hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bpcl=39580677&biw=1265&bih=702&sa=X&ei=fvu9UM-FOYqU2wXxqYG4Ag&ved=0CHAQ8wIwAg#ps-sellers
The seam sealer gets like a hard rubber. If you want to use my gun just send me a pm with your address and I will send it to you. You can put this over primer and it sets up fast and is paintable in I think about a half hour.
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Driver side floor pan, rear underseat, and toe boards in. Here is the full floor pan close up.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP5639_zps4e8fdac4.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP5636_zpsea9c9ed6.jpg)
Rust bullet undercoat applied with seam sealer put on the weld seams. Notice some of my patches around the AC box entry.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP5643_zps743dff18.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP5643_zps743dff18.jpg)
Epoxy Applied. Sorry some of the pics are hazy. This epoxy paint really fogged up the shop, and the camera shows it.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP56512_zps89c9dedc.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP5648_zpsf1589a91.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP5653_zps742f18b3.jpg)
Inside
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP5660_zpsceec013b.jpg)
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Looks great. Nice work man!
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Special thanks to JupiterBandit for helping me out with welding and fitment issues and to Elz for helping me out with alllllllllll sorts of rust-proofing, base-coating, and top-coating questions. I wanted to be sure I got the painting and sealing portion right so as to prevent this extensive job of replacing pans from ever being done again!
Couldn't have done this portion of the car without your guys' knowledge. Thanks for all the other info and advice the rest of you have offered as well.
Next up are the doors. I'm going to remove them from the car, clean them out, re-grease window tracks, properly align windows in doors, repair hinges (new bushings), and do anything else to them that I see fit. Then, after the interior is all reinstalled I suppose re-doing and prettying-up the rear end comes next!
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I'm impressed. Very nice work!
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Thanks a lot jupiter. You can tell exactly where my weld seams are. Every time I tried welding em down flush with the pans and parent metal I'd blow little holes in it. So I decided just to leave the welds stick up a little bit. You can tell they're there, but I guess I know they're strong and not too thin. I have no idea how you guys butt weld stuff up and grind your welds down flush without getting it too thin. Other than that, I think it turned out great too. I'm happy.
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Took one door off today. Gonna go through it next weekend. Using my harbor freight engine stand as a door cart. Works well!
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP5675_zps81a44134.jpg)
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(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/Rear%20End/IMGP5764_zps83ee504d.jpg)
After I get the radio crap done the new hotchkiss suspension is going in!
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Thanks a lot jupiter. You can tell exactly where my weld seams are. Every time I tried welding em down flush with the pans and parent metal I'd blow little holes in it. So I decided just to leave the welds stick up a little bit. You can tell they're there, but I guess I know they're strong and not too thin. I have no idea how you guys butt weld stuff up and grind your welds down flush without getting it too thin. Other than that, I think it turned out great too. I'm happy.
I moved down to a thinner wire and it seems to be working great right now. I hope to have another video up in a week
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Jupiter, I tried using .023 wire and I had a hard time feeding it through my big welder. It worked nice when it would feed.
I spent a lot of time making a bracket to hold 2 4" speakers that will fit in the single middle dash speaker hole in the car.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/interior/IMGP5790_zpsc5ef284b.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/interior/IMGP5787_zpsda18d525.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/interior/IMGP5786_zps172f1aac.jpg)
Not perfect at all, but it will do. I just hope it doesn't vibrate or anything.
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good stuff!!! keep it coming
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Thanks jup. I also got the rear 6x9's in. I cut holes in my package tray because the front of it is chewed up a little. The speakers are mounted beneath the metal, so when I decided to get a new package tray I'll just throw this one away and get one with speaker grilles in it. I like the one greenbird has. I forget who manufactures it. For now though the speakers' grilles with be visible. I put fat mat down before I put the speakers in of course.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/interior/downsized_0208131303_zpsb0d30c18.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/interior/downsized_0208131443_zps5928fd31.jpg)
Sorry, but these pics aren't that great because they were taken with my phone.
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I have been trying to avoid hillbilly fixes in my build and I have done an almost flawless job at it thus far. I feel like fixing this core support is kinda hillbilly though. The driver side was rusted half way done and the previous owner BARELY tacked it in place and SERIOUSLY used dum dum or something to put it together. ABSOLUTELY RETARDED! FLIMSIER THAN CRAP! I took that crap off and used some 20ga sheet metal I had left from my floor pans. It doesn't look stock of course, but I can't afford $200+ on a core support at the moment. This core has regained its strength and measures up within an 1/8" from side to side. Here are some pics. I have to clean it up, seam seal the welds to protect from rust, and paint it yet. That will come next week.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/Nose%20and%20core%20support%20removal/IMGP5849_zps704631dd.jpg)
Here is a close up of what the morons who owned it before me did.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/Nose%20and%20core%20support%20removal/IMGP5833_zps2ae4ec00.jpg)
More of my fix
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/Nose%20and%20core%20support%20removal/IMGP5850_zps9a9ec821.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/Nose%20and%20core%20support%20removal/IMGP5853_zps76588cf0.jpg)
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I think you are doing great. You will never see it. Make them strong and you do not have to use seam sealer on them. Just lightly grind the welds a bit and prime and paint.
Are you using gas or flux wire to weld with?
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Thanks jupiter. It is a lot stronger now. I thought the same as you, since it is not showing, it does not have to look the best since I'm on a tight budget, but I didn't want it to lose functionality. I do not think it did.
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Can anyone tell me where the rubber plugs that hold the firewall insulation pad to the firewall go? Here is a pic of the available holes.
Driver side
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP5958_zps8f48c972.jpg)
Passenger side
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP5955_zps17d2a995.jpg)
Also, I have found that this car had a t-roof installed. It is not original. I think I woulda done better. The welding looks shoddy. There are still scraps of metal that weren't completely trimmed off. There is light surface rust. I think I woulda rust proofed it too. Very disappointing. Pry why there is a thin layer of bondo on the entire car under the paint. Here are some pics of the inner sail panels from inside the car.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP5953_zps7db3ac25.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP5950_zps49d8230c.jpg)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP5949_zps6098a1f7.jpg)
Also, does anyone know where I could get a rubber boot like this to replace this on my steering column? Can you get replacements for these? Would O'Reily's have it?
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/IMGP5855_zpsb0fd2193.jpg)
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I had a good weekend on the car. Should be able to finish putting the rear end in tomorrow night.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/Rear%20End/IMGP6390_zpsa1501d5d.jpg) (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/Schroeder14/media/Rear%20End/IMGP6390_zpsa1501d5d.jpg.html)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/interior/IMGP6379-Copy_zps59d69f3b.jpg) (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/Schroeder14/media/interior/IMGP6379-Copy_zps59d69f3b.jpg.html)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/interior/IMGP6382_zps37dce3d4.jpg) (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/Schroeder14/media/interior/IMGP6382_zps37dce3d4.jpg.html)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/interior/IMGP6386_zpsb9301602.jpg) (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/Schroeder14/media/interior/IMGP6386_zpsb9301602.jpg.html)
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dang dude, your great!
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thanks man. I'm trying. I'm happy with how it all looks and how it's all coming together too.
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I thought about getting dynomat for my car. But, it's just so overpriced expensive for just a small benefit. I went with an imitation, el cheapo deluxe matting instead.
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Got some work done. The subframe has been put on with its new energy suspension bushings. Amazing how much more space there is between the subframe and the floor of the car with new, un-smashed bushings. I did some cross measurements to holes on the rear frame from the front subframe mounting areas using a plumb bob and such. I got measurements to be within 1/8"-3/16" and called the alignment good enough.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/20130604_205311_zpsf6889e45.jpg) (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/Schroeder14/media/body/20130604_205311_zpsf6889e45.jpg.html)
Can anyone assist me in getting these windows lined up? They seem too far off. I have tried adjusting them closer to the door skin towards the rear of the door and furhter from the skin near the front of the door according to some instructions someone on the forum provided me, but they have not worked. Could my tracks be facing the wrong way? Is there any way the wheels could be on the wrong sides of the tracks or something like that?
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/20130603_202146_zps688f5ee5.jpg) (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/Schroeder14/media/body/20130603_202146_zps688f5ee5.jpg.html)
I don't know if you can tell here but the window is about one inch from the door skin towards the rear of the door!
Here are my brake lines on the car, the new booster, etc. I also threw in a picture of the old brake lines next to the inline tube brake lines. It's amazing how well they make the original brake lines. I hope you can tell from the pics.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/brakes%20and%20all%20sorts%20of%20gas%20and%20fuel%20lines/20130606_215854_zps463dee19.jpg) (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/Schroeder14/media/brakes%20and%20all%20sorts%20of%20gas%20and%20fuel%20lines/20130606_215854_zps463dee19.jpg.html)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/brakes%20and%20all%20sorts%20of%20gas%20and%20fuel%20lines/20130606_215753_zpsfd3f2de3.jpg) (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/Schroeder14/media/brakes%20and%20all%20sorts%20of%20gas%20and%20fuel%20lines/20130606_215753_zpsfd3f2de3.jpg.html)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/brakes%20and%20all%20sorts%20of%20gas%20and%20fuel%20lines/20130606_215732_zps650e2aef.jpg) (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/Schroeder14/media/brakes%20and%20all%20sorts%20of%20gas%20and%20fuel%20lines/20130606_215732_zps650e2aef.jpg.html)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/brakes%20and%20all%20sorts%20of%20gas%20and%20fuel%20lines/20130606_194710_zps3d3ecbd2.jpg) (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/Schroeder14/media/brakes%20and%20all%20sorts%20of%20gas%20and%20fuel%20lines/20130606_194710_zps3d3ecbd2.jpg.html)
Here is another question I have. I just put Bilstein shocks. I pictured a sheet of the torque specs. I then picture my shocks with about NO torque on them. If I torque the shock to what the sheet calls for the cushions will bulge out MORE. This does not seem right. Should I keep puttin' the torque on?
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/Rear%20End/20130604_185943_zps9bf9a989.jpg) (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/Schroeder14/media/Rear%20End/20130604_185943_zps9bf9a989.jpg.html)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/Rear%20End/20130604_185936_zpsd909946e.jpg) (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/Schroeder14/media/Rear%20End/20130604_185936_zpsd909946e.jpg.html)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/Rear%20End/20130604_185846_zpsb216c755.jpg) (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/Schroeder14/media/Rear%20End/20130604_185846_zpsb216c755.jpg.html)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/Rear%20End/20130604_185824_zps8967a967.jpg) (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/Schroeder14/media/Rear%20End/20130604_185824_zps8967a967.jpg.html)
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Lines routed and steering box cleaned up and painted. I believe the box is supposed to be black but I like this cast aluminum look much better for it.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/brakes%20and%20all%20sorts%20of%20gas%20and%20fuel%20lines/20130608_160939_zps110f11f8.jpg) (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/Schroeder14/media/brakes%20and%20all%20sorts%20of%20gas%20and%20fuel%20lines/20130608_160939_zps110f11f8.jpg.html)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/brakes%20and%20all%20sorts%20of%20gas%20and%20fuel%20lines/20130608_160847_zps25f4ae09.jpg) (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/Schroeder14/media/brakes%20and%20all%20sorts%20of%20gas%20and%20fuel%20lines/20130608_160847_zps25f4ae09.jpg.html)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/suspension/20130608_082551_zpsefd17daf.jpg) (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/Schroeder14/media/suspension/20130608_082551_zpsefd17daf.jpg.html)
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/suspension/20130608_081205_zps8cca7869.jpg) (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/Schroeder14/media/suspension/20130608_081205_zps8cca7869.jpg.html)
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Finally got the bellhousing dowels out after an hour and a half. My dad suggested using bolt extractors. I hammered a #10 onto the dowel and spun it out with the air ratchet. Came right out. I wish I would've tried this from the get-go before I wasted a lot of time and gummed the dowels up so badly. It made measuring them for replacements hard. I still don't know if I should get .625 or .621 dowels. :-\ Holes measurements very from .616-.623, and they tend to stay on the lower side of that
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/transmission/20130610_190229_zps0af5fc8d.jpg) (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/Schroeder14/media/transmission/20130610_190229_zps0af5fc8d.jpg.html)
As the car comes together the shop opens back up little by little.
(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg588/Schroeder14/body/20130610_215513_zpsc893a270.jpg) (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/Schroeder14/media/body/20130610_215513_zpsc893a270.jpg.html)
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WOW, have you been busy! Get .625 dia dowels. They are a standard size(5/8") and as long as there is a little extra on the opening on the trans belhousing, your OK... Make sure you put some lead on them for ease of trans installation like originals... Mike
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Hi. Sorry to bump an old thread but I'm just wondering what happened to this project. What did you find out after you torque the Bilstein (http://4wheelonline.com/BilsteinShocks.4997) shocks?
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Sal good, I'm curious myself