Hitman's Pontiac Trans Am Forum
Trans Am Information => Trans Am Tech => Electrical => Topic started by: 78cali on September 03, 2009, 02:16:00 AM
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First of all, hi to Brett.
Okay, here's the deal. I have a 1978 T/A which hasn't seen daylight since 1984. We started the process of reviving her and after 2 years, she's alive!!! The weary 400 was stroked to a 467 and she's just beaming with joy ready to be driven.
Now the problem....we replaced the engine wiring harness with a new one but didn't replace the other half that deals with all the electrical equipment in front. I figured that I didn't have to since when parked many moons ago, the lights, horn, door buzzer, radio, a/c, etc all worked.
Now, I don't have any headlights, no horn, no turn signals, no radio, no blower, no interior lights, no instrumentation panel lights. I mean everything that deals with the front of the car. I however, have power to the rear of the car brake lights, running lights, etc. but nothing in front.
Is there a fuse or something for the front? Maybe a wire that's supposed to be connected to the battery.....please help!!!!
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What you provided is a good start but with out being there or being able to see pictures we need more details.
You said the brake lights work but do the tail lights work? That may change some of my theory. If the tail lights don't work, you may not be getting 12v from the alternator. Possibly due to a blown fusable link or just a bad alt.
There's a lot here and I've changed several things as I learned more in researching it but I left it all incase something might help. There are a million ways to go about this. Read through it and hopefully something will point you in the right direction.
First thing, check for 12vdc at the two red wires in the bulkhead connector. They are coming from the alternator and I believe they should both have 12v all the time. Now because I suspect a missing ground, first put your negative lead on the neg batt terminal itself and the red lead on the red wire in the bulkhead connector for this check. Then if you do have 12v, move the black meter lead to the sheetmetal on the firewall. If you don't have 12v now, you're missing a ground wire. Probably the large bare braided wire that goes from the block to the firewall.
Three of the things you mentioned, headlights, interior lights and horn should all have power all the times so, for those things, you can eliminate the ignition switch or connection to it as a source of the problem. You could have multiple causes but again, it sounds like you have a bad or missing ground in the engine compartment.
The red(pos) battery cable should go over to the alternator. Then another red wire, possibly two, should come off the alt and go to the bulkhead connector on the firewall. This wire may (probably) has a fusable link in it which could be burnt. The red wire may change color to black or green where the fusable link is. Not because it's burnt, that's just how the schematic is drawn. The schematic is unclear as to whether there is one or two fusable links and red wires going to the bulkhead connector. That easily checked just by looking at your connector. I believe this is the only "main fuse" in the engine compartment. One red wire goes to the corner pin on the bulkhead connector near one of the screws. The other goes one row down and 4 pins away from the first red wire. These appear to be the only red wires in the connector. These are what bring power into the cabin. One of them splits once inside the cabin. One leg goes to the fuse box to the fuse for the tail lights. You said the brake lights work but do the tail lights work? If so, that wire must have power. However, one of the legs that splits from that same wire goes to the horn relay which you said didn't work. This is why I think bad ground up front. The other red wire goes directly to the head light switch. The head lights ground to the front sheet metal which, if not connected to the negative battery terminal via the engine block to firewall ground wire, won't work.
The blower motor uses a resistor pack to vary the speed of the motor. It is mounted on the a/c box if you have a/c. I suppose it's on the firewall if you don't. Anyway, those resistors can open causing the blower to not work on high speed. It should always be running at low speed when the key is in and on. This is for positive air pressure in the cabin while the engine is running.
If you removed the engine, you may have forgotten to reinstall the braided ground wire the goes from the engine block to the firewall. I believe there is another bare braided ground that goes from the trans to the frame on the pass side. These are very important.
Does the car run? I am wondering if the plugs on the ignition switch attached to the steering column have been plugged in good.
If the car's interior has been taken apart, make sure that you have reconnected the dash/instrument panel ground wire located near the driver side courtesy light bulb. It's just a 12 gauge or so black wire that attaches to the metal dash via a screw into the dash through the eyelet on the wire.
If none of this helps and you still have the original harness, lay it out and go through it wire by wire and verify what each does and see if there is a wire that is needed but missing from the new harness.
Good luck,
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Just by reading through your post, I may have the answer right there. To answer your questions first, yes, I do have both brake lights and tail lights. With regards to the car running, yes, it does run. Alternator is brand new and very strong (charged up an almost dead battery in less than 20 minutes of running time).
1. I was just under the car when I came across a wire that you mentioned and it's not connected to anything (similar to a battery cable).
2. I also remember a braided wire by the firewall close to the distributor that's not connected.
I'll tackle these first as these are out in the open and follow your lead with regards to checking fusable links.
WOW, thank you so much!!!!!!! As mentioned, I came across those wires but gave them no concern. I knew they were grounds but thought that it had no bearing to me losing power to the front and inside the car. hehehehe.....you must be laughing and shaking your head. Thanks again and I will update you of my find.
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Believe it or not, grounds can mean life or death in a car.
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As mentioned, there's a wire similar to a battery cable hanging down and have no idea where it belongs.
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e78/tripod396/DSC02957.jpg)
The braided wire is bolted onto the firewall, where does the other end bolt on to?
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e78/tripod396/DSC02960.jpg)
There's also this connector which I have no idea where it should be.
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e78/tripod396/DSC02961.jpg)
A red wire from that connector leads to nowhere, where should it go?
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e78/tripod396/DSC02961.jpg)
There are also 2 green wires, one lighter than the other, also from that bunch by the blower
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e78/tripod396/DSC02963.jpg)
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Pic #2 - loosen an intake bolt, clean the surface, and attach.
Pic #3 - High speed relay for your AC fan.
Pic #4 - red wire should have a white clip on it that plugs into an extension harness. That extension harness connects to your alt.
Pic #5 - those should run into a 2 pin, round connector I believe. Might be square. Either to your AC Line or AC compressor. Would have to do some digging as BOTH are light/dark green. Yes GM fouled up on that one.
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Thank you!
pic #2 should be easy
pic #3 I don't see any where to plug it in
pic #4 can I just run a wire and connect it to the alt? Since this is connected to pic #3, will this in turn run my blower motor?
pic #5 should be easy as well
THANKS AGAIN!!!
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What about that battery looking cable wire that's on the passenger side?
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Thank you!
pic #2 should be easy
pic #3 I don't see any where to plug it in
pic #4 can I just run a wire and connect it to the alt? Since this is connected to pic #3, will this in turn run my blower motor?
pic #5 should be easy as well
THANKS AGAIN!!!
In Pic #3 - see the holes on the side of your AC suitcase just behind your hand in the photo? That's where the relay SHOULD be mounted. Looks like its missing. Just need to get one - I think I got mine at NAPA or the like. Pretty cheap to do.
Pic #4 - sure you could. Just use a ring terminal on the end that connects up to the post on the alt so it doesn't slip off. **Yes once you get the relay and the + feed setup your blower motor *should* work - all things being equal.
Your first pic I can't makeout so I'll take a stab in the dark and hope I'm right on one of them...
1. Its a shifter cable that needs to be hooked up to the tranny.
2. Its a speedo cable that needs to be hooked up to the tranny.
3. Its a ground wire that needs to be connected to something - perhaps subframe, tranny or firewall.
Are you sure its a wire???
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yes, and its thick just like a battery cable it's also bolted on to the subframe
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This relay that you mentioned, what is it called and NAPA you said carries it? So all I have to do is plug in that black connector to the "relay" and run a live wire to the alt. Am I correct?
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What about that battery looking cable wire that's on the passenger side?
The is called the secondary ground. One end connects to the subframe, and the other end goes under a bolt on the bellhousing to the block.
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Thank you Rick! Is this essential? One end is bolted on but the other end seems to have been cut or the connector is missing and it's so thick that I have no idea what to put there enable to connect it. Besides, it's too short to reach the block.
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By the way, in relation to my problem, I forgot to mention that the wiper and power windows work and all my gauges. Other than these, no power and no lights.
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Thank you Rick! Is this essential? One end is bolted on but the other end seems to have been cut or the connector is missing and it's so thick that I have no idea what to put there enable to connect it. Besides, it's too short to reach the block.
Well, it's a redundant ground, so it's likely that everything would work OK without it BUT if another ground connection somewhere went funky then you could have all sorts of "ground" problems. "Ground" problems are kind of like ghosts -- hard to find, hard to pin down, and really sometimes even hard to describe consistently. If the redundant one on yours has been cut off too short, I'd make up another one. It connects between the subframe where yours bolts on now and the bolt mounting the transmission to the block. Most of the time when Billy Bob pulls the engine he just cuts it off and/or forgets to reconnect it because he doesn't understand what it is about.
The grounds on the gen 2 F-body are the weak point in the design. The only part of the electrical design that's worse than the grounding scheme is the power window wiring design. That may have well been done by chimpanzees.
Incidentally, the copper braid that bolts to the firewall up in the engine bay is supposed to bolt onto the back of the passenger side head. You use one of the accessory holes to do that (the heads are symmetrical, so it's the same set of holes used for the power steering pump on the driver's side).
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This relay that you mentioned, what is it called and NAPA you said carries it? So all I have to do is plug in that black connector to the "relay" and run a live wire to the alt. Am I correct?
High Speed fan relay. I think I got it from Napa although it might have been Autozone.
Yes once you plug it in and run the extra line, provided everything else is wired correctly and in working order, your fan should now work.
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Cool, thanks! I'll go tomorrow and get that piece. I hope that the ground issue is the only problem.
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I mentioned both grounds in my original post.
"If you removed the engine, you may have forgotten to reinstall the braided ground wire the goes from the engine block to the firewall. I believe there is another bare braided ground that goes from the trans to the frame on the pass side. These are very important."
It appears that one of yours has been replaced with a red battery cable as you described it. If it is too short, you can get a new braided ground cable at NAPA or just buy a piece of 8 gauge wire and some crimp on eyelets large enough to fit the wire. If you don't have a crimping tool, see if they'll crimp them on for you. It's a handy tool to have so you might want to buy one anyway. Just be sure to measure how long you need the wire to be before you go to NAPA so you know what you need.
As mentioned, the braided ground on the firewall just goes to one of the empty holes on the rear edge of the pass side head. Same hole you might put a bolt in with a chain on it in order to lift the engine out.
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I took pics of what I found and yes, there's that braided wire that's not connected to anything except the firewall. There is no other braided wire underneath except for that big battery cable looking wire that I also took a pic of that's connected to the subframe. Should I just make one and where do I connect it?
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It was a sweltering 112 degrees here today and muggy. Will tackle that tomorrow. Have you read my post about the other stuff that works?
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By the way, in relation to my problem, I forgot to mention that the wiper and power windows work and all my gauges. Other than these, no power and no lights.
Ok, I'll look at the schematic again and see if that tells me anything more but I think you've isolated your main problem in the two missing main ground wires. I'd like to hear what your symptoms are once you hook the first one up between the head and the firewall and then hear what else, if anything, changes once you hook up the one between the frame and transmission or bell housing if you have a 4 speed.
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Ok. The windshield wiper motor, windows and gauges all get their power from a fuse in the the fuse block in the cabin and their ground via the instrument panel ground down by the driver side courtesy light bulb. I'm thinking it and the other parts attached to the rear half of the chassis work because they are getting grounded through the shifter cable back to the battery. All of the grounds for the rear half of the car ground to the chassis sheet metal. The shifter cable is metal and connects to the sheet metal via the shifter and connects to the transmission on the other end which is connected to the engine which is connected to the starter which has the negative battery cable hooked to it. If you turn on a few things for a while and run your power windows up and down a few times then feel your shifter cable, it's probably getting warm, maybe even hot. If you do test this, feel the cable before running anything so you'll have a reference point as far as how warm it is or gets. If your running the engine, it could get warm just from the exhaust pipes.
This is why the braided ground cables, from the frame to the trans or bell housing and from the engine block/head to the chassis(firewall) are so important.
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Gosh, very informative. Thank you so much!!!! I will surely give you an update and post it here tomorrow.
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Okay, today I bolted on that braided wire from the firewall to the head........STILL no power to the front of the car.
I noticed though that when I pulled the light switch, the left turn signal indicator light went on, not flashing but just remained lit.
Could it be grounded somehow, maybe....I don't know. I checked the turn signal lever and it was not engaged.
No courtesy light, no headlights, no horn......everything that I initially stated remains the same.
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More news:
When I turned the turn signal on, both front and back lit up but with the lights off.
I turn the lights on and only the rear blinks slowly, none in front.
I hope that means something. Please help!!!
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Okay, more updates:
I was jiggling wires under the driver side dash and now I have instrument panel lights (very weak) and the high beam indicator light went on. The left turn signal indicator light went off as well (but not for long) it went back on and high beam indicator light went off. Still no headlights. Power windows went up and down slower than a sloth....hahaha. I had to rev the motor for it to go any faster.
Anyway, with this I hope I'm getting somewhere and will make it easier to diagnose....still need your help!!!!
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I tested the horn manually and one of them works while the other doesn't. Which wires do I look for from inside the car? Will it come from the column? Is it part of the harness?
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Sorry guys, I'm posting as I go along with this tedious thing. Here are some pics of connectors that I stumbled upon and no where to go:
Found this under the dash by the steering column
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e78/tripod396/DSC02966.jpg)
These bunch from where the radio location. Some of them have direct power and some, the key needs to be turned on.
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e78/tripod396/DSC02965.jpg)
This is what I'm talking about, when the lights are on, the left turn signal indicator lights up.
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e78/tripod396/DSC02969.jpg)
Jiggling the wires also turns the high beam indicator light. Further jiggling cuts power to all.
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Your horns are part of the forward light harness in the engine compartment.
Pic #1: Honestly I don't remember that connector.
Pic #2: STOP!!! You've got bare wires in there! At least tape them up before continuing to troubleshoot your electrical issues. If one of those is live, and it comes in contact with a ground like your dash you've just created a toaster.
Pic #3: Is more than likely related to your lack of forward lights. When mine did this it was due to the car having an insufficient ground at the radiator core support. Once I added a dedicated ground that issue went away. It's also entirely possible that you have a blown marker light as I believe GM engineered it so that this would happen if a bulb blew on the same side as the turn signal indicator.
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I just pulled them out so there's no contact since I tested them and YES, some of them do have power.
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Brian,
Radiator core support? Is there another ground wire there too?
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I'M STUCK!! Still no headlights, horn, dome light, etc. If I wasn't a grown man of 50+, I would throw a tantrum and cry.... >:(
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To build on what Brian mentioned, run a ground wire directly from the ground wires for your head lights to the negative battery terminal or engine block. You do have the ground wires for the head lights screwed to the front sheet metal right? Then see if the head lights come on. Running a ground straight from the head light ground wire to the battery will tell you if it is a ground problem. If it works with that new ground, your head lights aren't grounded properly. If it still doesn't work with the direct ground, you may not be getting voltage to the head lights.
The way your dash/turn signal lights come on dimly usually indicates a bad/missing ground somewhere. The turn signal light is glowing dimly because something else doesn't have a good ground and it is finding a path to ground through the turn signal bulb. So you need to figure out which ground is missing and provide that. I think it might be the one from the frame to the trans/bell housing. You still need to hook up the ground wire from the frame to the trans or bell housing. Right?
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Brian,
The schematic just shows the head light ground as a ground symbol. It doesn't show how the core support is connected electrically to the chassis ground wise. I haven't had my front end apart. Is there a ground wire that connects the core support to the front sub frame or fenders? Or did they just rely on the physical connection of the core support to the fenders and the fenders to the chassis for a ground path?
78cali,
You didn't install fiberglas fenders on this car did you? I'm not even positive that they are available but that would explain why you have no ground path through the fenders if that's what they used for a ground path.
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No, fenders are original. I did come across those ground wires on both sides of the fender and they're on there really tight.
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Ok, run a wire from the head light ground wire to the negative bettery terminal and see if they work.
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Okay, I just did that right now and connected a wire straight from the negative of the battery....still no lights.
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It's that wire that's connected to both fenders right?
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If you grab the wires that plug into your head light bulbs and follow the black ones, they should be screwed to the sheet metal somewhere close by. Unscrew that screw and attach a wire to that and screw it back into the metal and then touch the other end of that new wire to the negative bettery terminal with the head light knob pulled out. The lights should come on if you are getting voltage to them.
I'll go out to the garage and look to see exactly where it is that the ground sires connect and edit this post in a few minutes. 11:35pm eastern here.
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The black wire goes into the harness and out again on both sides of the car. From the harness, it comes out and screwed onto the fender. This is where I connected a wire and the other end to the negative battery.
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Yes, I saw that you're from KY. I apologize for keeping you up.
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You're not keeping me up. I work 3rd shift and have for so long that I can't sleep at night unless I'm really beat.
So, a dedicated ground and still no lights huh? Just to be sure we're troubleshooting working bulbs, take a regular 9volt radio battery, unplug the head lights and touch the two contacts of the battery to the prongs on each light. The low high/beams wil have three prongs. Just touch the battery to all combinations of prongs. Do your light bulbs work?
If your up and fooling with this right now, you're more than welcome to call me on my cell. 502-759-3837
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To answer your question above regarding the other ground wire that's connected to the subframe, yes, you're right that's the only one that I haven't connected. Thing is, now that I recall, that wire was never connected to begin with. I always saw that dangling.
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I don't have a 9 volt battery, is there another way to check these? Even though I'm very positive that they do work since I took them off a running parts car that I had some time ago. I still want to rule that out.
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Ok. That ground still needs to be connected. As I said earlier about the bulbs glowing dimly, that's a sign of a missing ground. Even though you remember it not being hooked up before, it might solve a problem now. This one and the one on the head are called "redundant grounds" because they back each other up in case one fails. I know you said you thought it was too short. Can you piece it together with another piece of wire you have laying around just temporarily?
Do you have a smoke detector in the house? They usually use 9 volt batteries. Another way to verify the bulbs with out a 9v batt would be to run a wire directly from the positive batt terminal to one prong and take that dedicated ground wire you ran to the neg batt terminal and touch it to one of the other prongs on the bulb.
Do you have a volt meter and do you know how to use it? If so, next thing I would suggest would be to check for 12 volts at the head light plugs.
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1 bulb has 3 prongs and the other has 2. Not sure which is which (high or low beam)
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Embarrassing as it may seem for someone who was a former educator with a graduate degree, I do not know how to use a volt meter. No, I don't have one. I just like tinkering with these cars as far back as I can remember but NEVER with electrical.
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Who should I look for when I call, your profile just says 78ta. Are you sure it's okay to call?
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Brian,
The schematic just shows the head light ground as a ground symbol. It doesn't show how the core support is connected electrically to the chassis ground wise. I haven't had my front end apart. Is there a ground wire that connects the core support to the front sub frame or fenders? Or did they just rely on the physical connection of the core support to the fenders and the fenders to the chassis for a ground path?
Randy,
The forward light harness has a ring terminal on either side near the side markers. The only place for those to connect on my car were on the radiator core support. Since my radiator core support was powder coated so I had to run a dedicated ground up there from the battery. It's a good idea to run one anyways...can't have enough good grounds :)
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Many many thanks to Randy!!!! He stayed up last night as he walked me through t diagnose my prblem. it was a blast, felt like he was right there beside me trying to figure out what was wrong with the car.
Anyway, I still have to take the brake booster off the car enable to reach the harness. I'll update soon as we get this done.
Here's a pic of her finally up from hibernation of 25 years. I wish I took care of her better then but, good news is she's all intact.
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e78/tripod396/DSC_0241.jpg)
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You're welcome Rene'. I enjoyed talking with you as well. Check the bottom of each post for the poster's name. A lot of people put there name there, me included.
For anyone following this thread that picked up on the 9v battery trick to test light bulbs, we discovered that trick does NOT work with Halogen bulbs. Apparently, they require much more current than the old T-3's of the 60's and early 70's. I've used it many times scrounging T-3 bulbs from junk yards. Saves you from removing and buying bad bulbs.
We suspect the problem with Rene's headlights to be that the bulk head connector did not get plugged in all they way when they replaced the engine harness. It's very difficult to reach with the brake booster installed so the screw was not reinstalled.
A little dusty maybe but the car looks like it's in great shape Rene'.
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Thank you once again Randy and to Brian as well. This is what a forum should be all about, people helping others who share the same interests.
By the way little dusty is an understatement. We just blew air on her and most of it seemed embedded onto the paint....hahaha.
We took her out and drove her 2 blocks and back. Ran GREAT! Although, we came back and it might have overheated or something because the coolant from the radiator just went spewing out (don't have a reservoir connected yet). Timing maybe???
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Didn't you say it had been sitting like 20 years? The thermostat is probably rusted shut. Did you change the antifreeze and oil before starting it?
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Motor is fresh, 0 miles. My concern right now is the radiator. I should have had it flushed or rodded out. I just stuck a water hose to it with the drain open, installed it and poured fresh coolant.
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Remember, there's going to be some coolant loss without a reservoir installed. That's why they're there. ;)
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I understand that but this one drained out my radiator completely.
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Good news Randy!!! We have lights and you were right, the minute we bolted that screw on tight, the lights went on.
However, another problem arose. Only the high beams go on and the right (passenger side) will start to go on but doesn't stay lit. This is when I step on the dimmer switch. Is there a way to test this? When I step on it to change to low beams, the result is no lights at all.
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Did you just install the screw or did you take the booster off so that you could verify that the plug was installed correctly? Just wondering if the bulkhead connector is still not mated/seated well.
Other possibilities would be the dimmer switch. They can go bad but as I mentioned before, when something suddenly quits working, look over what's been done recently. You've had all the plugs on the light bulbs off testing the bulbs so double check to make sure they are all plugged in correctly and plugged in well.
The dimmer switch simply switches the voltage from the tan wire(low beams) to the light green wire(high beams-all 4 lights). I may have called the tan wire brown the other night. So the fact that you have no lights at all when you click the dimmer switch to "low beams" makes me think you've still got a bad connection on the tan wire for the low beams at the bulkhead.
As I said on the phone, the inner lights(high beams) get their voltage from a light green wire that simply jumps over from the driver side outer(low beam) light bulb. So if you have the two inner (high beam) lights coming on, then you're getting voltage for all 4 high beam bulbs to the front of the car. At least to the driver side outer bulb. So it sounds like you may just have a bad connection at the bulbs as far as the high beams go.
Again, if you have no low beams at all, it's most likely a bad dimmer switch or a bad connection at the tan wire in the bulkhead.
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No, we did pull the connector out to check and double check the pins. They were all intact and none of them were bent.
As a matter of fact, it went in smoothly this time around and we tightened the screw.
I was inside the car while my son was in front of the car to look at the lights and he said that every time I would step on the dimmer switch, the right side would light up a bit but not completely. Like it wanted to light up and stop.
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As I told you Randy I wanted to dedicate this build as a tribute to my daughter but I'm about to put her back into her cave again.
Now that we're getting close to remedy the electrical issue, my hood won't close completely, and it seems that she's heating up emptying the radiator of it's contents. I looked under the car and it was like someone opened the drain plug.
I purposely had the motor built professionally since I didn't want and screw-ups and now this..... I have built motors in my younger days and something like this didn't even happen.
Arrrgg......getting really frustrated.
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Just keep at one step at Time. Get one problem Solved and move on to the next and you'll find you won't be as overwhelmed or frustrated with the issues. I had similar issues with an old bike. Took me a couple months to workout all the gremlins and now it runs great.
Your doing a good job so don't give up now
Charlie
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I'm sorry to hear you're still having trouble. I can see how it would be even more frustrating given the fact that you want it done for her as opposed to just doing it for yourself. But still, sometimes, you just have to walk away from a project for a few days.
One thing I would suggest to help reduce your frustration level would be to work one problem at a time. It can get overwelming trying to solve three problems at once.
I noticed in the pic that the hood appeared to be open. If it's been like that a long time, I wonder if the latch and or hinges just need to be lubed.
A quick (I think) check for the light issue would be to swap in another dimmer switch. Or simply disconnect it and use some jumper wires to verify that the dimmer switch is operating correctly. The light blue wire going to the dimmer is the 12v supply wire coming from the head light switch. Just take a jumper wire and connect the lt blue wire to the tan wire and see if the 2 outer low beam lights come on. Then connect the lt blue wire to the lt green wire and see if the high beam (all 4) lights come on. This is with the head light switch pulled out of coarse. Also, make sure your battery is charged up well. There was a post recently where someone thought their power windows stopped working and it turned out that their battery was just very low. As we found out the other night, these halogen bulbs apparently require a lot of current.
If the radiatore has been sitting a long time, it could have a lot of sediment. You might try putting some radiator flush in it. Or just disconnect the upper and lower hoses on the engine side and put the garden hose to it and see what your flow looks like. I've heard of some reverse flushing theirs by putting the water hose into the lower hose and running it through backward.
Oh, I just remembered that there was a post just the other day in which an engine was over heating and they showed pics of the head gaskets. I'm no expert but it looked obvious to me that the gaskets were blocking 95% of the water passages. The cutouts for the water passages in the gasket, supposedly the correct one, were no where near being in the correct location or large enough. I'm sure you don't want to pull your heads off but it's something to keep in mind after you've tried the simple fixes like flushing the rad, changing or removing the thermostat etc.
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I'll do that today and see if the switch is the problem. Battery is strong, not only is it brand new but I'm also using a brand new 100 amp alternator.
You're right, tackle the problems one at a time. I just got too excited because of the dedication. I drove her out of the garage and it sent tears to my eyes because it reminded me of her so much. It's like the car's alive and ........I don't know, hard to explain.
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You're right, tackle the problems one at a time. I just got too excited because of the dedication. I drove her out of the garage and it sent tears to my eyes because it reminded me of her so much. It's like the car's alive and ........I don't know, hard to explain.
It wouldn't be as much fun if it was easy. ;) It will be all that much more gratifying when you get there. And you will. All of us here will do our best to make sure of that.
Happy thoughts,
Randy
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I just got my 78TA and am having some some similar issues with the headlights and horn and lighter and wipers. I read through theis thread and got a list of things I can check( I can use a voltmeter)...
So, let me ramble some things that come to mind:
I have a grnd wire going from the front wire harness to the radiator core support and it's tight but I didn't check the wire where it comes out of the harness. I didn't measure any volts on any of the wires to the headlights- I think this means that they don't have any volts on them but, I think you are saying that it could be a ground somewhere... I have a grnd cable going from the block to the subframe but no grnd from tranny to subframe....
The I have drive lights, gage lights, but no hazards...
the headlights switch has 12V coming into it but I don't know which terminal I should be looking for to send power to the headlights. The floor switch has power and it toggles as the swtich is depressed....
On the Wipers- I measured 12v on the motor and then when the selector was set to low my meter could settle on a votage on a green/black wire( I think that was the color) indicating to me that the power was being pulsed perhaps? Does that sound like a bad wiper motor or a frozen wiper motor?
Thanks!
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skisix38off,
I didn't measure any volts on any of the wires to the headlights-
You won't have any voltage on the wires unless the head light switch is pulled out.
I have a grnd cable going from the block to the subframe but no grnd from tranny to subframe....
just to clarify, the subframe is the frame section that the suspension and motor mount to. The braided ground wire should go from the rear edge of the passenger side head to the firewall(the chassis). There should also be a braided ground going from the transmission(auto) or bell housing(manual) to the subframe on the pass side.
The I have drive lights, gage lights, but no hazards...
This could just be the flasher module.
If you have 12v at the dimmer switch, then you have 12v coming from the headlight switch. The wire coming out of the switch to supply the head lights is brown or tan.
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Thanks Randy,
I am clear on the sub-frame... The gnd on my car goes from the pass. side head bolt to a bolt on the subframe just below the head. That's the only one I saw there but, I will check again a little more closely and resprt back. I can make a gnd to go from the auto trans. to connect to the same point on the sub-frame id that would help?
I also looked more closely at the fuse box into the firewall and that is very loose. I tried to tighten it without removing either the hood or the brake booster and was only able to get in there with a 1/4" driver plus extensions and tightened the screw until I thought I was in danger of breaking the socket or the externsions I was using and the fuse box was still loose on the firewall. I will go at it again this morning when I can start to make noise, any tips on how to get at this or what can be removed to make this easier?
At the same time I ohm'd out the headlights and found the bottom of the three prongs was going to grnd ( ~1-3ohms to chassis and battery). I turned on the lights and then tried the trick about taking a second wire from the headlight grnd prong to the battery and still no lights....
skisix38off,
I didn't measure any volts on any of the wires to the headlights-
You won't have any voltage on the wires unless the head light switch is pulled out.
I have a grnd cable going from the block to the subframe but no grnd from tranny to subframe....
just to clarify, the subframe is the frame section that the suspension and motor mount to. The braided ground wire should go from the rear edge of the passenger side head to the firewall(the chassis). There should also be a braided ground going from the transmission(auto) or bell housing(manual) to the subframe on the pass side.
The I have drive lights, gage lights, but no hazards...
This could just be the flasher module.
If you have 12v at the dimmer switch, then you have 12v coming from the headlight switch. The wire coming out of the switch to supply the head lights is brown or tan.
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I am clear on the sub-frame... The gnd on my car goes from the pass. side head bolt to a bolt on the subframe just below the head. That's the only one I saw there but, I will check again a little more closely and resprt back. I can make a gnd to go from the auto trans. to connect to the same point on the sub-frame id that would help?
Well, the ground from the head bolt _should_ go to the chassis(body sheetmetal). Not from the head bolt to the sub frame. I'm not sure if we're having a problem with terminology here. You need a ground going from the engine to the sheet metal and from the trans to the sub frame. The ground from the tranny to the sub frame is near the oil filter if I recall correctly.
I think the bolt you are tightening behind the brake booster is the bolt for the bulkhead connector that connects the front wire harness to the main body wire harness. Not the fuse box. The bulkhead connector bolt is hard to reach with out removing the brake booster. I think it only takes 4 nuts to remove the brake booster but be very carefull to keep it supported if you're not going to disconnect the brake lines. I think you could lean it forward enough to make room to reach the bolt better. I'm pretty sure the fuse box screws straight to the sheet metal from inside the passenger compartment.
If you know you have a good ground(by ohming it out) at the head light prong and the still did not come on when you touched a wire from the pos batt cable to the other prongs on the bulb, that bulb is bad OR your battery is dead. If you suspect the battery, and don't have a spare battery sitting around, pull another car up and use the battery from that car to do the test. Just remember to run a ground from your car to the new battery.
At the same time I ohm'd out the headlights and found the bottom of the three prongs was going to grnd ( ~1-3ohms to chassis and battery). I turned on the lights and then tried the trick about taking a second wire from the headlight grnd prong to the battery and still no lights....
This bothers me a little. I can't get to my car but I have the service manual with me on vacation for reading material. Not sure what says about me. Anyway, according to the wiring schematic, one of the vertical prongs is the black ground wire. Not the bottom horizontal prong. The wire attached to the bottom(horizontal prong) is labled "BLK/GRN LT". I think that's black with a light green stripe. It's the 12v supply for the four high beam bulbs. If you have a good ground from the core support to the chassis, and touch a 12v wire to this prong all four high beam lights should come on together. By the way, you don't have to have the head light switch pulled to make this test. The ground is alwaysthere and you are supplying the 12v directly from the battery.
You said before that you measured 12v at the head light dimmer switch, the tan wire coming from the dimmer switch is the 12v wire going to the low beams. The light green wire is the 12v wire going to the driver side high beam bulb. This wire splits and goes to all four high beam bulbs. If you have 12v at the dimmer with the head light switch pulled out, you should have 12v at the bulbs. If you don't, you have an open wire between the head light switch and the light bulbs. The only connection between the two is the bulk head connector.
Again, make sure you're battery is charged.
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Yeah!!!! I now have headlights, flashers, wipers, horn and e brake the works!!!!!!! I can pass an inspection not to mention not stress about being caught in the rain or past dark!!!!!
I think now that this was several problems and some bad timing....
The headlights- after dinking around with the fuse box bolt in the engine bay and getting no joy from that I thought I was in for some very serious work and called in a friend. While waiting for him I noticed a brn wire on the fuse box was split and I repaired that, then I noted that on the lower left side of the fuse box under the dash there was a screw that was loose so I ran it back in to tighten and then wondering what just happened I connected the battery and ....I have lights. I still don't have brights but I the dimmer switch has to be the issue.
Wipers- just probably haven't run for years, a good wabik with a dead blow and they are running again.
Horn- missing the ground.... That one took a while to figure and test to prove....
I still think I have some issues to resolve with the bulkhead bolt that you referred to, and I have to add some more grnds- we didn't have a terminology problem Randy, we are understanding each other.
So, I have enough to get on the road now and can take my time in making everything last for another 31 years....
Thanks so much to everyone for the nice tips and suggestions!!!
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Hey Randy,
Sorry for the silence, I was rushed to the hospital and suffered a mild stroke. I still have some questions for you and I hope you don't mind if I email you instead.
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Hey Rene',
Yeah, well... you needed something else to deal with. Right? :o WTF.
I hope it was very mild and you're ok now. That's nothing to mess with.
Email me anytime. w70442@hotmail.com
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skisix38off,
Glad you're up and running.
Yeah, if the car sat for a while or the car is new to you, that would explain several things seemingly happening at once.
I am clear on the sub-frame... The gnd on my car goes from the pass. side head bolt to a bolt on the subframe just below the head. That's the only one I saw there but, I will check again a little more closely and resprt back. I can make a gnd to go from the auto trans. to connect to the same point on the sub-frame id that would help?
Obviously, you're getting some kind of ground because things are working.
However, I know you said we understood each other about the difference between the subframe and chassis but your wording above doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy feeling that we do. If so, I aplogize for beating a dead horse but just to be sure, there are two main grounds........
One ground wire from the passenger side head to the firewall. This one seems to missing on your car.
And one ground wire from the bell housing(if manual transmission) to the sub frame OR from a mounting bolt on the automatic transmission to the sub frame.
My concern is that if your car has a ground wire going from the passenger side head to the sub frame and you add a ground wire going from the transmission to the sub frame as you mentioned, you're not including the chassis sheet metal anywhere in that equation. The electrical system relies on the chassis(body sheet metal) itself having a good ground path to the engine block along with the sub frame being grounded to the engine block through the transmission via a ground wire.
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Thanks Randy,
the car runs now and could pass inspection so that I can get it registered in my name and get my plates on it and be all legal and such- that's been the top priority.... The stereo, an aftermarket one, stopped working on Sunday- just when I was starting to relax a little and think about cleaning/detailing the engine bay and looking at the mechanicals.... So, I took apart the radiio bay and then saw this and that wasn't right so.... the dash is torn down agai, although this time I think the stereo itself is the culprit and none of the wiring. But, in the process I'll mount the tac/speedo cluster to the dash( no screws were in that cluster) and the light bulb from the climate controls had fallen out and I can poke around the cig lighter while all that's going on. Plus the black bezels that go around the gages fall out very easily so I'm going to try and get them to stick in the dash bezel a little better.
I know.... Welcome to classic car ownership!!! I'm having fun discovering the car, please don't mistake my list of things that need reapir as complaining...
Grounds- All I have found is the grnd from the block to the sub frame. Period. There's a grnd from the head light harness to the radiator support too. So, I need to grnd the firewall to the engine block and then add a grnd from the tranny to subframe.... Can I pick a mounting screw from something already mounted to the firewall? I'm pretty sure that's a yes but wanted to ask....
skisix38off,
Glad you're up and running.
Yeah, if the car sat for a while or the car is new to you, that would explain several things seemingly happening at once.
I am clear on the sub-frame... The gnd on my car goes from the pass. side head bolt to a bolt on the subframe just below the head. That's the only one I saw there but, I will check again a little more closely and resprt back. I can make a gnd to go from the auto trans. to connect to the same point on the sub-frame id that would help?
Obviously, you're getting some kind of ground because things are working.
However, I know you said we understood each other about the difference between the subframe and chassis but your wording above doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy feeling that we do. If so, I aplogize for beating a dead horse but just to be sure, there are two main grounds........
One ground wire from the passenger side head to the firewall. This one seems to missing on your car.
And one ground wire from the bell housing(if manual transmission) to the sub frame OR from a mounting bolt on the automatic transmission to the sub frame.
My concern is that if your car has a ground wire going from the passenger side head to the sub frame and you add a ground wire going from the transmission to the sub frame as you mentioned, you're not including the chassis sheet metal anywhere in that equation. The electrical system relies on the chassis(body sheet metal) itself having a good ground path to the engine block along with the sub frame being grounded to the engine block through the transmission via a ground wire.
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Welcome to classic car ownership!!! I'm having fun discovering the car, please don't mistake my list of things that need reapir as complaining...
Grounds- All I have found is the grnd from the block to the sub frame. Period. There's a grnd from the head light harness to the radiator support too. So, I need to grnd the firewall to the engine block and then add a grnd from the tranny to subframe.... Can I pick a mounting screw from something already mounted to the firewall? I'm pretty sure that's a yes but wanted to ask....
You're welcome.
Yep, that's the "fun" of owning a classic. ;D
Yes, you could pick a hole something else is already screwed to on the firewall. The firewall is pretty thin metal so be sure to sand the paint away right at the hole so that you do get metal on metal contact for a good ground. Same goes for the head though it's not as critical because that bolt will have several threads that will come into contact with the metal of the threads inside the head. They generally suggest using one of those star washers with the sharp points all around it. Those dig into the paint to scratch down to bare metal. I'll try and remember to look at mine to see if there's a specific hole on the firewall it's grounded at.
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Now, on to other issues with the same car...
The gas gage is reading off- at empty( I wish I didn't find this out the hard way) the gage reads 1/4 and at full the gage goes well beyond full. I thinkt he span of the gage is correct but it's start point is off- How do I adjust that?
I broke the 12V tab on the cig. lighter and I don't think I can solder it back on well enough to have it last- can I just buy a new one or do I need to go to a junk yard or trans am bone yard to get another one and hope it's in better shape?
As always, thank in advance for your help.
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At least your reads. Mine goes to full when I fill up and then starts to drop but then gets stuck at 3/4. Occasionally, it will break loose and read correctly until empty. I'm pretty sure mine is a bad spot in the resistor of the sending unit. I've already checked and rechecked every other connection. Gotta pull the tank.......
Your's sounds like a mis adjusted float on the sending unit. Unfortunately, you'll have to pull your tank to fix that as well. When I restored my 70 442, I actually calibrated my sending unit so that I know I have 3 gallons left when it is right on E. Pretty simple really, just make sure it's empty, pour 3 gallons in and bend the float until it reads E or wherever you want 3 gallons to read. You obviously have to put the tank back into position to check each time you make an adjustment.
Someone may have replaced your sending unit with a used one in the past and the used one may have gotten bent while it way laying around waiting to be used again.