Topic: PHS. A $50 Ripoff?

[shakerz]

Just got my first PHS packet ever ordered. Ordered it on a 79 t/a i've had for awhile that is my biggest conundrum car. bought it for 800 a few years ago. gold tinted t-tops, se wheels, gold dash under bezels. had a partially disassembled pontiac 350 in it, cowl tag didnt match. painted in bad black with gold showing in tell tell places. i did find out from window sticker that my car was marty blue on blue. Long story but here is the question, actually the gripe with PHS. I received a partial photocopy of my car's window sticker, about 2/3'ds of it and what was there is such poor image quality much of it is not legible. that was the only document in the packet specific to my car's vin. the remainder of oodles of documents were comprised of generalized info for all 79 firebirds such as prod. #'s, sheet metal specs, etc. blah! all info i can get and have gotten for free on internet. i sent the PHS guys an email detailing my disappointment -how about a build sheet, or a dealers order form? no answer so far. no phone numbers on their web site nor can one be googled. i dont like that in a company i do business with. thought i would ask for some feedback from you guys with PHS experience. 50 bucks for a partial and messy picture of a window sticker seems a bit uneven to me.

thanx,
shakerz

[ta collector]

that is not a copy of the window sticker, it is a copy of the invoice.

[jphillips3333]

For $800, it probably didn't matter to get the docs. 
For someone dropping $30,000, it probably would matter to ensure they were going to get what they were buying.

It's a matter of perspective as to what that $50 is worth to you.

Don't be blue ... 

[RENOVATIONS]

None of us expect perfection on them considering the copies are made from 30 year old microfiche.
The info (such as options that came on your specific car) can't be found anywhere else except through Pontiac Historical.
Build sheets are not availabel through PHS or anywhere else as they were used during assembly by the factory workers...sometimes they were left in the cars...sometimes not.

I agree it's always nice to get "more" for your money but in this case, it's accurate information that verifies your car to be what you say/think it is.
Who knows...if properly restored, that $800. '79 may well be worth $30K at some point down the road,.
Good luck with your project.

[Rick]

ta collector is correct -- that's the invoice.  See those boxes up at the top?  The one marked "date of execution"?  That's the date that your car was officially born.  This is a copy of what was sent to the dealership to confirm that the order had been received and telling them EXACTLY which options were going to be on it.  The actual order paperwork from the dealer is lost to antiquity.  PHS doesn't have buldsheets because GM didn't archive them.  They were generated off of the invoices (like the one you show) and then were treated as strictly disposable items.  Any of them found on the factory floor were thrown away at the end of the day, and in fact it was only laziness on the part of assembly line workers that any of them were left in the cars.  Dealers routinely tossed them if they saw them during the "new car prep" process because they were consider trash.

PHS is working off old microfilm records that are so tiny that it's good you can read them at all.  GM didn't spend much documenting stuff like this back in the day and the techonology was neaderthal in any event.  Have you ever had to search a mircofiche data base?  I have -- and it's not easy.

I'm not going to argue that $50 of YOUR money is worth what you got, but what *I* paid was worth what *I* paid for it, and I even have the orignal handwritten yellow copy of the order for the car worked out between the salesman and I back in Feburay 1975.  In most cases, where there is no build sheet, no window sticker, and no original order paperwork -- PHS is the only way to find out what options the car did or didn't have when it was built.  If that information is important, then that's how you get it if you don't have any of the other documentation.  And after 30+ years, there really is no clue as to how the car was originally configured in most instances.  My $0.02.

[shakerz]

For $800, it probably didn't matter to get the docs. 
For someone dropping $30,000, it probably would matter to ensure they were going to get what they were buying.

It's a matter of perspective as to what that $50 is worth to you.

Don't be blue ... 

hey jp, thanx for the response. i have a 79, 76 and 71 numbers matching low miles so i understand ur point but guess i was expecting too much from PHS after reviewing the replies from you guys, guys i respect and rely on. thanx all, rick and 79resto.
the 79 in question will be a car that i take some liberties with instead of the purist part of me tryin to take control. lol

shakerz

[79 Trans Am]

I posted  a similar post a little over a week ago. I was also a little disapointed in the package for the $50.00 bucks. I guess I thought I was going to get more. I kept seeing it was 30 bucks and I think thats what it says on the site but once I got to the PHS site it was $50. Maybe Hitman just hasn't had the updated link. It did verify some things though.  I'm also new here to the forum and maybe I should have asked a few more questions here on the forum before plunking down the 50. I also payed the $30.00 bucks for the window sticker but still have not received it. It was noted it on the packet it would come later. I guess just how much later is the question ? I don't like that there is no number to contact them about your order ,especially if they won't return a e-mail. I just e-mailed them also to inquiry about when I will recieve the window sticker. If I don't get a reply or the window sticker shortly ,I won't be a happy camper either. Will let you guy's know.

[rkellerjr]

PHS changed their pricing not too long ago, a few months or so ago.  It was $35 when I bought mine for my car.

[RENOVATIONS]

PHS price increase discussion: http://transamcountry.com/community/index.php?topic=7139.0

[79 Trans Am]

Anybody ever get a window sticker from them ?

[Rick]

Yes, I did.  It took maybe 2-3 weeks.  It's dead-on accurate, comparing with the scraps of the one I peeled off the window when the car was new in March 1975.

[79 Trans Am]

thanks,Rick

[kentuckyyeti]

A 1979 with gold t-tops and Marty Blue?  Marty blue was a 1978-only color, for all the info I have ever seen.  Your invoice calls for Marty Blue on your '79?  And it has gold t-tops?  Like a lot of the cars, parts got switched over the years.  I got my set of Y88 gold t-tops on a 1978 Marty Blue 4-speed car I bought.  Sounds like you aren't hurt for $800 + $50 for the PHS.

[O'Neall]

Yeah, Marty Blue was a one year only (78) color.

As for those who don't appreciate (or perhaps under appreciate is a better way to say it) what they get with PHS keep this in mind.  If PHS didn't do this, that is, if they didn't take the time to store the michofiche, and make it available to Pontiac owners (for the $50 fee) we'd have absolutely no way of verifying our cars if we didn't have the original window sticker or build sheet.  What PHS provides is a copy of the factory-to-dealer invoice... as such it is a unique piece of your car's history that can't be found anywhere else (never would have been in the car like a build sheet).  So to those looking to verify/document their cars what PHS provides is of enormous value.

Also, understand that the person who runs PHS (Jim Mattison) is very highly respected in the Pontiac world, but he does not work for Pontiac (and PHS is not part of Pontiac).  He does have close ties to the factory though and is the person responsible for seeing that many of Pontiac's private collection makes it to the Nats each year.  As such, he is hardly one to be suspect of in regards to trustworthiness.  And as I understand it PHS is not much of a money making venture.  If I had to store all that microfiche, then dig each invoice up for each person who wanted one, and provide them with all the extra year-specific info that comes in the PHS packet I'd charge more than $50 for my time and effort.

So I guess what I'm saying is, I for one am very grateful for PHS and what they offer... and I guess I just don't understand when people aren't.  Maybe people just don't understand how PHS got started and how the whole process works.  I don't know....

[ta collector]

I agree with Jon, i am glad we have PHS and i have had all my birds documented in a world of cloning and vin changing it is nice to see the documentation on oringnal cars.

$50 is not alot when it could save thousands on buying a clone you thought was an oringnal.