Hitman's Pontiac Trans Am Forum
Trans Am Information => Trans Am Tech => Electrical => Topic started by: 79TeeTop on March 26, 2011, 10:06:55 PM
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I am having trouble getting both the power lock and power window on the passenger side to work.
I've cleaned all connections on both the switch side and at the lock actuator and window motor sides.
I can use the passenger side door lock switch to operate the drivers side lock but nothing on the passenger side. The actuator is new because the old one was clearly seized up.
Power window motor is new.
It looks like the previous owner had replaced the console window switch. It looks fairly new and if you turn it over it lights up when operating the switch. Switch operates the driver's side great.
Is there any common thing (a relay, bad ground, etc) that would knock out everything electrical in that one door?
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bad grounds for one! did you check the connections behind the kickpanel ?
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Those circuits use different ground applications. The power door lock is grounded at the drivers door while the power windows are grounded via the window motor fasteners.
Power door locks: Try switching the switches. If the passenger sides works after the switch and the drivers doesn't, you've got a bad switch. Otherwise you'll need to break out the volt meter and test for power. You could have a bad or sticking solenoid.
Power windows: You need to pull the door panel and measure for voltages at the motor. Work your way back to the switch. Sometimes a wire pulls out of the switch if someone has monkeyed with it. So, visually check the switch for a pulled wired. Note the color of the wires going to that side of the door.
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Those circuits use different ground applications. The power door lock is grounded at the drivers door while the power windows are grounded via the window motor fasteners.
Power door locks: Try switching the switches. If the passenger sides works after the switch and the drivers doesn't, you've got a bad switch. Otherwise you'll need to break out the volt meter and test for power. You could have a bad or sticking solenoid.
Power windows: You need to pull the door panel and measure for voltages at the motor. Work your way back to the switch. Sometimes a wire pulls out of the switch if someone has monkeyed with it. So, visually check the switch for a pulled wired. Note the color of the wires going to that side of the door.
Thanks for the tips. Luckily the door panel is already pulled on that side so I'll give the things you suggest a try and go from there.
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I had a loose wire on the window switch,,,,, the window would go down but not up.............
The only way Russ,,, could find it,,,,,,,was the volt meter...............
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I had a loose wire on the window switch,,,,, the window would go down but not up.............
The only way Russ,,, could find it,,,,,,,was the volt meter...............
When we got no voltage at the motor we worked our way back to the switch. I saw that the brown wire was pulled slightly out of the connector. Pushing it back it resolved the problem.
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Didn't have a lot of time this weekend but I did swap the door lock switches last night. Same result, driver's side worked fine but dead as a door nail on the passenger side.
I'll continue investigating but I believe the windows have a relay somewhere near the steering column. Any chance that has something to do with the window issue? I wasn't sure if the power flowed from the source through the relay to the switches or what. I know I have juice at the switch....
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If the relay was bad you wouldn't have power at all to the switch. So, both windows would be inoperative.
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Thanks for the tips.
I am going to have to get a day and whip out the mutli meter I suppose.
My hunch is there's something going on with the wires as they go through the door into the car or behind the kick panel.
Windows could be at the switch though, just old brittle wires maybe? I had a headlight harness and a turn signal switch harness like that on my Mustang that were so brittle they were beyond hope.
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My guess is a bad door lock solenoid and perhaps a bad wire in the power window switch connector, or a bad power window switch.
You know both power door lock switches are good.
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I finally got a chance to get out the multimeter today.
Something curious.
I read volts when operating the switch on the door lock plug and read volts when flicking the power switch at the motor plug. I can pick up ohms when the switch is not operating on both of the plugs in the door.
I still have to wonder if there's a common ground for both the window and the lock somewhere....? I put the negative terminal of the mutli-meter on the door so that grounded the meter out.
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You're not measuring ohms at this point. As I stated before, the power windows use a different ground than the power door locks. The power windows ground at the window motor fasteners. The power door locks ground on the drivers door.
Disconnect the connector at the power door lock and measure for power. If you've got 12 volts at both the lock and unlock, it's the solenoid.
On the window, do the same thing. Disconnect the connector at the motor. Measure for 12 volts at both the up and down functions.
On both connectors, one terminal controls up or unlock and the other controls down or lock.
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I had 10.5 - 12 volts on both lock and unlock.
Where's the solenoid located?
Window had around 12 volts as well. After I replaced the old burned out motor the window worked exactly one time, went down fine, just barely made it back up and dead since.
On the plus, the lock and window on the driver's side are working great, LOL!
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The solenoid is located on the back door edge.....under where the door stickers would be. You should see two rivets one above the other. That's what's holding the solenoid to the door.
As far as the window is concerned, did you clean and grease the tracks? Did you run a ground wire from one of the motor mounts through the boot to a suitable ground point on the chassis? Sounds like the switch is doing its job. You are sticking or you don't have a proper ground.
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The solenoid is located on the back door edge.....under where the door stickers would be. You should see two rivets one above the other. That's what's holding the solenoid to the door.
As far as the window is concerned, did you clean and grease the tracks? Did you run a ground wire from one of the motor mounts through the boot to a suitable ground point on the chassis? Sounds like the switch is doing its job. You are sticking or you don't have a proper ground.
I figured it out this weekend. I have an actuator not a solenoid which appears to be two different things in the shop manual. But the long and short is when I bought the car the actuator was pretty much frozen. I had purchased a new one from O'Reilly and had been running on the assumption it was good. I took that one back and exchanged it at O'Reilly. Turns out the one I returned was a bad part right out of the box. Installed the one I picked up Saturday and it works. It will unlock the door at least. It operates in both lock and unlock but appears there is a remaining problem in the lock portion of the door. It's old and probably junked up some. I was thinking of removing and cleaning / grease on the part but I didn't have much luck getting the three big screws out of the end of the door that hold it on. May end up having to drill them out because they are pretty stuck. Honestly, the lock mechanism sees bad enough off I may be better off just replacing it.
I am going to try running a ground wire for the window when I get time to take the kick panel, etc off.
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Yes you are right it is called an actuator. A fancy word for an electric motor that moves in both directions.
Some parts books still call it a solenoid (don't ask me Y). I'm guessing because when power locks first came out. I think they only locked the doors, but you had to manualy unlock them. Which used a solenoid, works in one direction, so I think the term just hung around.
Yes them screws can be a pain. I had to drill a couple out in a parts car I had. Try to spray it up with some WD to wash out some dirt. Then spray some white greese in there and see if it helps.
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One thing is certain. A person would generally run on the assumption a brand new out of the box part was not the issue and after pulling my hair out I finally decided to try trading it out and see what happens since there was nothing else it could be. Glad I gave it a try......
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I'm not sure what your set up is, but the bracket that holds the solenoid is riveted to the door. There are some nuts and bolts that hold the solenoid to the bracket. So, you don't remove the bracket but do remove the solenoid from the bracket. But your set up sounds different.
Make sure you're looking at the right area. There are big screws for the door catch.
And, you could call it an actuator rather than a solenoid.
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The solenoid / actuator (whatever one chooses to call it) is replaced...again but this time with a unit that works.
Its the door latch that appears to be gummed up and needs cleaning / grease or simply just replaced. This part...
https://secure.amesperf.com/qilan/Detail_Web?part_num=FF231DR
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Sorry, I misread your post. Try lubricating that latch with some oil. You'd be surprised how a little oil changes everything.
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Hello,
I am having similar problems with the door locks. Neither side door lock will operate the electric operator. I have bypassed the switch and applied 12 volts to the wire leaving the switch and nothing happens. I then cut the wires going directly to the electric operator inside the door and applied voltage, the operator would only operate if I grounded the unlock wire during operation on the lock wire and vise versa. So I know the operator is good and I bypassed the switch.
The wires leaving the switch go into the dash area and then a moulded pair of wires come from the same area to the electric operator. Is there a relay or something under the dash?
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There's nothing under the dash. Bad move to cut the wires. It's so easy to pull the door panel. You may have a bad switch.
The way it works is there's ground on one terminal and 12 volt on the other......that either locks or unlocks. Switch the ground and 12 volt and the opposite function happens.
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I thought the actuator was grounded through the case mounting to the door and voltage on one wire unlocked and voltage on the other wire locked, bad assumption. Why do the wires go to the dash area before they go to the actuator? Is that ground switch function happening in the door switch?
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The ground is on the drivers door. The wiring has to connect from one side to the other. That's why the wires go under the dash. Plus, the harness has to plug into the fuse box.
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Did you try bypassing both switches? just because you bypass one does nnot mean it's good. As ta78w72 stated the wires go through both switches, and you may have bypassed the good switch. You need to double check the connections at both switches, check switches with a multi meter, ground on drivers door, and the plugs behind the kick panels.
Did they just stop working or have they never worked for you? Are you power windows working?
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Sounds like a bad switch to me if the locks work with volts applied directly to them. Or a wire with a nick in it somewhere along the way from the switch to the lock.
I've decided I am going to replace the latch on at least my passenger side door. I pretty much cannot unlock it with a key from outside.
Also, by way of update...yesterday I ran a ground wire from one of the power window motor mounting bolts to what would appear to be a decent ground under the dash. No change.
The motor is new but I am wondering if it's a bad part? The actuator I replaced was new and ended up being part of the problem since it was apparently bad right out of the box.
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Neither side door lock has ever worked.
I just recently purchased the car and don't know a lot about it yet (just getting familar).
Both windows work, a little slow but they work. I tried to get to the wiring behind the drivers kick panel, but it looks like I need to remove the parking brake and to do that it looks like I need to remove th inner fender. Is that correct? I probably should do that anyway since the electric antenna doesn't work. The previous owner had the fuse pulled because the antenna motor ran constantly.
Does the replacement door lock switch come with the molded wiring plug with pig tails? While attempting to remove the plug from the switch a couple of wires broke off inside the plug. Not Good!
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To remove the drivers side kick panel you need to unbolt the ebrake and move it aside. There's a couple of nuts on the firewall in the engine compartment, and a couple by the kick panel. Undo those and lay the ebrake system on the floor. Then remove the metal trim on the side. You'll need to move the weatherstripping away from the inside of the body to reveal one of the fasteners. Remove that metal trim and that will give you access to removing the kick panel. You don't have to remove the inner wheel well.
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Did you check for 12 volts at the each switch with a meter? One wire at each switch should be live...with the key on of course.I don't have my wire diagram handy to say which wire is the live one. Just making sure to try the simple things before you take things a part.
No, the switch comes as just a switch. With the pins sticking out the back. The plug is part of the harness. I hear ya, 30 year old plastic and wires likes to crack.
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Oh wait. the key does not have to be on. Sorry. :)
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Yes I do have 12 volts at each switch.
Do all of the wires connect through 1 multi pin plug behind the kick panel or are there multiple plugs to check? I'm thinking that if I have voltage, then the connection should be good behind the kick panel.
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There are connectors under the dash, but the best bet is to measure for voltage the actuators. Then work your way back.
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There are 2 for the door locks, and 1 for the power windows. See first pic below. This is what comes behind the kick panel from the door. The one orange with black strip is for the locks and also the large 4 wire. I take it the orange is where you got the 12v reading, and the other 4 wire is the one that runs door to door. You could check for continuity between the door to door harness (blue on right door to blue on left door, and so on). I would do this before I removed the panels. If you have voltage to the switches ,continuity between the doors, and the ground is good. You have 1 or 2 bad switches.
Might the wires that came off the plug have not been making a good conection?
Drivers door harness behind kick panel.
(http://www.78ta.com/gallery2/main.php/d/34654-1/DSC03092.JPG)
At the switch. Note the 2 black wires for the ground. they should be screwed into the door.
(http://www.78ta.com/gallery2/main.php/d/34656-1/DSC03093.JPG)
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So I have a ?
If my passenger side power window is still getting volts and I ran a new ground wires from one of the motor mount bolts into the car and attached it under the dash but the window motor is still not working what else might I try to get the pass side power window motor working?
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Could have a dead motor. You have 12 volts at the window motor connector? Did you take the window out and clean the tracks and everything else?
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I've got 12 volts but I have not cleaned the tracks out....might try that this weekend. I have tomorrow off and my boys are busy with their cousin and Grandma tomorrow so that should give me several hours.
I had also thought about a dead motor and started wondering if I should try to attach it to the other side?
Down side to that plan is I'd have to remove the driver's side door panel again.
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I made some progress last night. It appears that the wiring connections in the flat molded plug are bad. A previous owner has apparently been inside the connector, some of the female pin receivers are missing and solder was added to the wiring to make a connection which is not doing the job. Also looks like one bad switch.
Thanks for all the help guys. This is a cool site!
Does anyone have a source for 2 of the wiring connectors to mate with the switches?
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I have seen the whole harnesses listed on ebay. Never just the plugs, but maybe someone here has.
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Those short pieces come up on ebay every now and then. I'm referring to the connector that attaches to the motor and runs through the door and connects to the harness under the kickpanel.
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I just got through doing some work on my power door locks. The power lock actuators in one of my 79's would try to work, but weren't strong enough to move the lock knobs. They would click, but that's about it. So, I decided to investigate inside the driver side door today. I lubricated the door latch with PB Blaster and then some White Lithium spray and moved the lock mechanism up and down until it moved as freely as possible. That actuator was then able to unlock it, but still not strong enough to lock it or vice versa, I don't remember now. But it only worked one way :) . So, I removed the original actuator. It seemed to work fine when not connected to the latch. But, I have a couple of spare used actuators, so I decided to try a different actuator. I tested it first, and it worked, but didn't seem any better than the one I was removing. I went ahead and gave it a try. I had removed the original actuator by removing the rivets. I had already decided to bolt the actuator back on with 1/4" size bolts and nuts. I removed the actuator bracket from the actuator I was going to use and welded the nuts to the bracket. Reattached the bracket to the actuator and bolted it to the door. Hooked it all back up and the actuator works strong.
And this is where I have a theory. I'm not sure it's just the replacement actuator that made the difference. I believe that by bolting the actuator in, it created a better ground for the actuator than the aluminum rivets do. The sure test would have been to bolt the original actuator back in to see if it works strong too, but I didn't think about this until I had it all back together and I don't want to take it apart again. I still need to fix my passenger door power lock too, so I will put my theory to the test with the original actuator on that door. If that goes well, I'm thinking that replacing the aluminum rivets with bolts could help slow power windows too.
Of course, using bolts for the actuators doesn't look original, since the bolt heads are seen. Later I will probably get some button head bolts for a smoother look.
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I don't believe those actuators are grounded through the rivets. The ground is on the drivers door. And, I would advise against drilling out the rivets. The actuators are bolted to the bracket. The bracket is riveted to the door. So, it's possible to change the actuator by unbolting it from the bracket without disturbing the rivets. Although it might be easier to drill out the rivets.
In your case, probably disconnecting the harness from the actuator probably improved the connection and that's what made the difference.
I could be wrong about the ground because I haven't bench tested that circuit. The schematic indicates a ground wire that runs into the actuator connector. I suspect the actuator gets ground from that wire which connects to the drivers side door. If the actuators were grounded to the door, there would be no reason to have a ground wire. It would be like the power window circuit.
Both the power window and door lock circuits are crappy. The power trunk release works pretty good though but it doesn't get the load that the other two circuits get.
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I looked at the door lock wiring diagram and it looks like there's a ground wire off of the driver side switch connector. So it appears you're correct ta78w72...the actuator bracket doesn't provide the ground, so my bolting the bracket to the door didn't really make the difference.
I replaced my passenger side lock actuator today. I tested the original actuator first by removing the rivets and bolting it back to the door, and it behaved no differently..it still didn't work, so that verified that bolting the bracket made no difference. So, I lubricated the door latch well and tried the original actuator again, and it behaved like my original driver side actuator did before I changed it. It only worked to open the lock and could not lock it. Then I installed my replacement actuator, and it works strong both ways. So, in my case the problem was latches that needed a good lubrication and actuators that needed to be replaced. Luckily I had bought the extra used actuators from eBay for cheap about 4 years ago, and they actually turned out to be good :) . So, that saved alot compared to new ones. It's nice to have them working well.
Like you said, you could remove the actuator from the bracket from inside the door by unscrewing the 4 screws and leave the bracket attached to the door with the rivets. It's a little cramped inside the door to do that though. So I still like my nuts and bolts conversion, since it makes it really easy to remove and install actuator and bracket together :) .
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I'm not convinced I'm right about the grounding of the actuator. I need to bench test it. I hate to post inaccurate information. I'm not in a position to do any bench testing since my house is being remodeled. The reason I want to do this is, if the actuator does indeed need to be grounded, we need to run a ground wire from the actuator bracket to the power window motor fastener and another wire from one of the power window fasteners through the boot to a suitable ground place in the cabin.
The grounds on these cars can be subtle. For example, the power window relay is grounded via the fastener to the steering column bracket. It took me a while to figure this out when I was testing a relay. So, that's causing me to pause about my assertion on the actuator ground.
On the rivet issue, yeah, it's really tight and might be easier to simply remove the rivets. I plan on trying to save the rivets and as a last resort remove them. When I get my Y88 back, the power windows and power door locks is at the top of my list. I'm going to replace the actuators rather than screw around with the old ones.
I also found a set of brand new door glass aligning blocks on ebay for $17. I've been wanting a set of these for years.
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Nice find on those door glass blocks. I have a couple of 73-75 a-bodys and I was lucky enough to find some blocks for those cars on eBay a while back.
As for the grounding of the actuators, I do know that the passenger side actuator did not have to be grounded to the door to work, because after our discussion here, I checked for that. I tested it in my hand, free from the door, and it worked without being grounded to the door.
When I did the driver side door earlier, I just assumed the actuator bracket needed to be grounded, so I was doing my testing of my spare actuators by grounding them against the door. From what I remember, I didn't think they worked when I didn't rub the bracket against the driver door metal hard enough to get a good ground. So, that's why I was thinking they needed grounding. If I'd known that there would be doubt about whether the driver side actuator needs to ground on the door, I would have paid more attention at that time. At this point, I am wondering if maybe the driver's side actuator must be grounded to pass the ground over to the passenger side. But, after looking at the wiring diagram in my 79 Fisher Body manual, a ground wire appears to come off of the driver side pdl switch and would be screwed to the door somewhere. So, if the switch is wired like in the book, it wouldn't seem necessary to ground the actuator.
As for the rivets, if you ever removed them, and wanted to replace them with rivets, you know that you can still get new ones at a body and paint supply store or other place where auto fasteners are sold.
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That ground wire in the connector is what made me believe the actuator didn't ground to the door. If you tested an actuator without it being grounded other than by the connector, and it worked, then that actuator doesn't get it's ground from the door.
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Yes, on the passenger side, I just had the connector plugged on it and operated it with the pdl switch and it worked in my hand.
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The actuator itself is not grounded by it's body, bracket or rivets. It gets grounded threw the switch, and the ground will change between the blue and black wire that hook to the actuator depending on the switch position. Unlock = (black+)( blue-).....lock= (blue+) (black-). The two switches just change the polarity of the wires and which ever is the negitive is the one that gets feed to the ground wire on the drivers door. An actuator is just a fancy word for a motor that works in both direction.
What are window blocks? Sorry, didn"t mean to change the subject. Just wanted to know if I had them, or if I needed them.
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The window alignment blocks are just that. They assist in aligning the door windows. See the 78 body manual 5-85. It explains how they work and also shows a picture of them. Good luck finding a set. But they may come up on ebay with all the dealers going out of business. I got lucky.
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Just to be clear, the window alignment blocks aren't parts for the car. They are tools to help align the door windows during installation of the door windows. You can align the windows without them by trial and error. But the alignment blocks are what an assembly person or service person would have used to speed up the job.