Author Topic: Amazing Crosswind Landings... Freaking Talented Pilots!!!!  (Read 6424 times)

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Offline Prettybird81

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Amazing Crosswind Landings... Freaking Talented Pilots!!!!
« on: December 11, 2008, 01:51:47 PM »
Amazing.  BTW.. Joe Richter... wherever the heck you are... thank you for getting some of us to and from the places we want to be safely!  Vids like this remind me that there are a ton of competent, talented individuals piloting these beasts!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX3S5y_SooM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5X_7Xt2ga-s&feature=related
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 01:54:08 PM by Prettybird81 »
Jeri

"Prettybird" ~ 81 T/A 301T/Auto, 23K.... oh... wait... make that 26K... nope... 27K Orig Miles (survivor)

"Arlington Cemetery has no section for Republicans, Democrats or Independents so get over yourself & suck it up"

Offline rkellerjr

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Re: Amazing Crosswind Landings... Freaking Talented Pilots!!!!
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2008, 02:14:11 PM »
I'd also give kudo's to those tire makers, can you imagine the stress on those things when they come in sideways like that, let alone straight?!

Here's a scary one, I understand they came back around and landed safely after this pass...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfB4xyM7tMw

Rich

Offline Prettybird81

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Re: Amazing Crosswind Landings... Freaking Talented Pilots!!!!
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2008, 02:40:41 PM »
Yeah... that one is on the end of the 2nd vid.  If I remember correctly they had been circling for awhile and really were forced to give it a try because of fuel issues.  I had also read that the wing was damaged when it hit the runway... incredible that the pilots were able to control it enough and get it back up in the air... Just awesome skill.  (i'd still need to change my pants tho hahahaha)

I'd also give kudo's to those tire makers, can you imagine the stress on those things when they come in sideways like that, let alone straight?!

Here's a scary one, I understand they came back around and landed safely after this pass...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfB4xyM7tMw


Jeri

"Prettybird" ~ 81 T/A 301T/Auto, 23K.... oh... wait... make that 26K... nope... 27K Orig Miles (survivor)

"Arlington Cemetery has no section for Republicans, Democrats or Independents so get over yourself & suck it up"

Offline Hitman

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Re: Amazing Crosswind Landings... Freaking Talented Pilots!!!!
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2008, 06:56:30 PM »
I know I would have pee'd my pants.
Brett Campbell
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1978 Trans Am

Offline jjr

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Re: Amazing Crosswind Landings... Freaking Talented Pilots!!!!
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2008, 08:10:24 PM »

 Joe is here and combs through 78ta regularly. <grin>

 There's so many sharp folks on here, I'm often too late to
help on non 301 issues.

 Thanks for the comments on the folks that also make their
livings like myself.

 What you wouldn't know about larger airplanes is their stability,
a few of the wilder "looking" vids were the more middle sized
aircraft - which believe it or not - is more preferable in a lot of
ways.

 There's no direct counterpart to automobiles that is a crosswind
landing... maybe..., drifting has some similarities.

 From my perspective, I prepare my plan of attack well away from
the runway. If you notice in a few cases the aircraft had no trouble
lifting right back off... which is what we do in these cases.

 In a crosswind, or gusty conditions we keep the machine in a much
higher energy state and forgo the crowd pleasing squeaker...

 We have guidance for each aircraft design as to practical and maximum
demonstrated limits to what the machine can do.

 Not apparent in the videos, but strongly felt in the controls is the
very smoothing effect of getting close to the runway, this is called
ground effect. While I'm sure just about no one would find the whys
on that interesting, every pilot knows it's coming.

 Not that we don't love the attention, but here's the pilot perspective
related in "Trans Am" terms.

 Many of us drive fairly ordinary cars to the grocery, work and transporting
the kids and friends to and fro. But in our special time we all love the thrill
and handling of our TA's. TA's give us feedback from the road and what's
happening through the suspension. The throttle, steering and design give
us such an ease of driving , we feel like we have mastered the road and what
comes next. This is a much different experience than a lot of daily driven autos,
that while decent - just aren't the same experience.

 Airplanes, large jet airplanes, are much like Trans Am's in that they give
tremendous feedback and are exceptionally responsive to even slight
pressures. That kind of machine gives you a confident feeling in approaching
a more needy situation. I know my machine, collect a plan, verify the design
abilities, and almost always can keep from getting folks excited.

 So I guess I could say this... looks a lot worse than it really is...

 Captain Joe Richter of 21 years of airline flying, 35 years of flying total.
 (I was 14 when I started)
1979 10th Aniv 400/4spd
1980 Black SE 301NA
1980 Indy Turbo Pace 301T
1981 Turbo 301T
1981 Black SE 301T
1981 Daytona Pace 301T
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Offline jjr

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Re: Amazing Crosswind Landings... Freaking Talented Pilots!!!!
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2008, 09:09:04 PM »

 It's actually "Flare"... but unless you spent time in my world you wouldn't
know the subtle spelling difference.

 There are two distinct methods of landing in a crosswind. Crabbing and side
slipping... Nearly all of the vids show the crab method which depends on
realigning at the last second... this keeps the cabin level and more comfortable,
it also keeps the wing tips away from the ground.

 Often Military trained folks, a slight majority, will only use this method. I don't
as often as they do. It depends on the conditions, but holding a runway
alignment all the way down final can give better results. But it feels goofy
in the cabin (for like 5 minutes).

 The flare isn't necessary, unless you want people to come back and fly with
you again.

 I dump the "flare" anytime safety suffers, like shorter runways or ice contamination.

 We'd love to ease it on when ever we can, but my real job is safety first. I'll go
out of my way to slam the thing down to hold good safety margins, that's a
part of what you are paying for.

 I'd much rather make you wonder what the hell I was doing than to hurt anyone.

 I'll take the comments about what felt like a goofy landing knowing that you arrived safely.

 So, I (we) have a flare for showing off and keeping folks safe - no matter how much
we scare you... <grin>

 Joe
1979 10th Aniv 400/4spd
1980 Black SE 301NA
1980 Indy Turbo Pace 301T
1981 Turbo 301T
1981 Black SE 301T
1981 Daytona Pace 301T
www.301garage.com

Offline Rick

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Re: Amazing Crosswind Landings... Freaking Talented Pilots!!!!
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2008, 09:25:26 PM »
I dump the "flare" anytime safety suffers, like shorter runways or ice contamination.

Joe -- I caught a bit the other day saying that the ground crews are running short on runway deicer this winter.  Some potash mine up in Canada was on strike for 90 days and just went back to work.  It's going to take a few weeks for production to ramp up and apparently until it hits its stride again the available supply is gonna suck.

Good luck and fair skies over your destination(s)! :-\

Offline jphillips3333

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Re: Amazing Crosswind Landings... Freaking Talented Pilots!!!!
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2008, 11:38:15 PM »
I always say any landing is a good landing.

Hey, I'm heading to St. Maarten via a cruise in early January.  I'll really be thinking about you friendly folks up north ...really, I will.

Here's a landing down there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1YHn9c3AAY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhkVt---_dQ&feature=related
John

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Offline jjr

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Re: Amazing Crosswind Landings... Freaking Talented Pilots!!!!
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2008, 01:10:11 AM »

 Hammer, thank you Sir,  Rick, Yes sir, aviation is complex - as you know all too well.

 2 to 3  times out of say 10 flights folks ask questions, of which what I say doesn't
register.

 Car folks understand machines AND many of the aspects that aviation presents if even
indirectly.

 I grew up fascinated by mechanical systems, and watching F body production at Norwood,
I must master my air crafts systems to be any good at what I do... Something that I just
naturally do for automotive systems.

 That's me in a 5-3 minute focus...
 
 Joe
1979 10th Aniv 400/4spd
1980 Black SE 301NA
1980 Indy Turbo Pace 301T
1981 Turbo 301T
1981 Black SE 301T
1981 Daytona Pace 301T
www.301garage.com

Offline rkellerjr

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Re: Amazing Crosswind Landings... Freaking Talented Pilots!!!!
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2008, 07:01:20 AM »
I always say any landing is a good landing.

Hey, I'm heading to St. Maarten via a cruise in early January.  I'll really be thinking about you friendly folks up north ...really, I will.

Here's a landing down there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1YHn9c3AAY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhkVt---_dQ&feature=related

Wow, those baby's just clear that fence, or at least it looks like in those videos!
Rich

Offline limey

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Re: Amazing Crosswind Landings... Freaking Talented Pilots!!!!
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2008, 08:07:44 AM »
Yeah... that one is on the end of the 2nd vid.  If I remember correctly they had been circling for awhile and really were forced to give it a try because of fuel issues.  I had also read that the wing was damaged when it hit the runway... incredible that the pilots were able to control it enough and get it back up in the air... Just awesome skill.  (i'd still need to change my pants tho hahahaha)

I'd also give kudo's to those tire makers, can you imagine the stress on those things when they come in sideways like that, let alone straight?!

Here's a scary one, I understand they came back around and landed safely after this pass...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfB4xyM7tMw



The pilots did the right thing by rejecting the landing.  As you can see by the video, during the flare, the pilot removed the "crab" with the rudder, but did not compensate with aileron.  During landings with a steady state wind, this will work, when its gusty, a "wing low" combined with the crab method  will help.  Engine pylon clearance can be a concern on transport category aircraft, so the wing low method can only be used up to a certain point.   Many airlines compensate for windy conditions by adding a determined amount of airspeed to reference airspeed on windy approaches.  We will add up to 20 knots to our "ref" speed depending on the situation. (runway condition, damp, wet, length, grooved etc)  Both the wing low "forward slip" and crab can work depending on the situation.  I really enjoy watching the Boeing test videos but much prefer the wind straight down the runway ;)
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Offline Mayan78

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Re: Amazing Crosswind Landings... Freaking Talented Pilots!!!!
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2008, 04:19:52 PM »
I'm also amazed at the photographers running out to get a better shot...

Sorry, but with a 747 or such coming right at me, I'm reaching for the telephoto lense and staying WEEEEEEEEELLLLLLL away.

Offline stimpy

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Re: Amazing Crosswind Landings... Freaking Talented Pilots!!!!
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2008, 05:30:59 PM »
Joe now you makeme woner if you where my pilot when I had to go to houston and the pilot crabbed the plane in at Hobbie so hard the right side of the plane got to the airport before the left !

Offline jphillips3333

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Re: Amazing Crosswind Landings... Freaking Talented Pilots!!!!
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2008, 06:22:26 PM »
You can either crab inot the wind and kick the rudder at the last minute or dip the wing ... at least in a cessna.  I like to crab.
John

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Offline jjr

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Re: Amazing Crosswind Landings... Freaking Talented Pilots!!!!
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2008, 08:40:08 PM »
 I haven't gone into Hobby in like 10 years plus.

 The crab or slip choice has to do with a number of considerations.

 A "few" aircraft were built with "crosswind landing gear" such as the
B-52... which solved the whole problem.

 A Crab has the problem of realigning with the runway and in doing so
drifting with the wind after you re-align. So, the crab has to be taken
out as close to touchdown as possible.

 A Slip has the problem of getting wing tips, or engines in some cases,
very close to the runway. Contacting the runway would be in Aviation
terms "bad".

 So it comes down to aircraft design, experience and conditions as
to which is the better choice.

 My initial flying lessons were in Cessnas where both approaches were
taught and discussed.

 My machine is the MD-80 which does not have wing mounted engines,
but the wing is closer to the ground than say a 757. The 737 has both
the lower wings AND engines below the wings and so probably different
considerations are made... it does appear that the 737 has greater wing
dihedral than my machine, so maybe its not a wing tip issue.

 There's quite a range of wind speed and angle to the runway that adds to
what we'll choose. And certainly pilots have preferences in what they'll
choose.

 Nearly all large commercial airports have several runways, allowing for a
better crosswind line-up in the vast majority of cases.

 After flying for years, I find the old adage true... the most dangerious
part of an airplane trip is the ride home in the car. So many other drivers
are doing all but driving...

 Be careful out there...

 Joe
1979 10th Aniv 400/4spd
1980 Black SE 301NA
1980 Indy Turbo Pace 301T
1981 Turbo 301T
1981 Black SE 301T
1981 Daytona Pace 301T
www.301garage.com