Hitman's Pontiac Trans Am Forum
Trans Am Information => Trans Am Information => Topic started by: OkieTransAm on May 16, 2015, 12:23:33 AM
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Well first things first, new here, not new to forums but new to this one, I bought a "79 trans am" and ever since ive gotten it theres been concerns and different things that are making it seem like its a different year than the vin shows. The vin matches the title i have in my name, and it shows the car is a 79 with a 403 (clearly doesnt have a 403 in it)
Well ever since i have had it other people have pointed out a few things that show it may be a 80-81? Like the Bird on the filler cover, it has the center console from possibly a 81 with the computer behind it. There has been a few other things that i cant remember but I'll post some pics.
Surely parts can be swapped and i could be worrying over nothing but ya never know right?
My question is where all is the vin stamped on the car? other then the dash and the door sticker (which is nearly unreadable to my eye) and the engine (since its not original) and the cowl tag(which is gone)
I found a build sheet behind the rear seat yet the vin on the build sheet doesnt match the vin on the car/title........maybe the seats were swapped? which makes me think ok the seats are blue all the trim is blue, did they swap the whole interior or is the build sheet actually for this car and the vin has been tampered with?
I really hope im overthinking things ha, onto pictures
(http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u458/95chevysilveradoz71/DSCN6318_zpsdp8zvsid.jpg) (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/95chevysilveradoz71/media/DSCN6318_zpsdp8zvsid.jpg.html)
(http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u458/95chevysilveradoz71/DSCN6323_zpsgphsswpq.jpg) (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/95chevysilveradoz71/media/DSCN6323_zpsgphsswpq.jpg.html)
(http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u458/95chevysilveradoz71/DSCN6326_zpsqxjr73xg.jpg) (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/95chevysilveradoz71/media/DSCN6326_zpsqxjr73xg.jpg.html)
(http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u458/95chevysilveradoz71/DSCN6327_zpscbrkvn6k.jpg) (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/95chevysilveradoz71/media/DSCN6327_zpscbrkvn6k.jpg.html)
(http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u458/95chevysilveradoz71/DSCN6337_zpsxb6lozvc.jpg) (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/95chevysilveradoz71/media/DSCN6337_zpsxb6lozvc.jpg.html)
(http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u458/95chevysilveradoz71/DSCN6338_zpsqf5zzarz.jpg) (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/95chevysilveradoz71/media/DSCN6338_zpsqf5zzarz.jpg.html)
(http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u458/95chevysilveradoz71/DSCN6339_zpsco8hook5.jpg) (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/95chevysilveradoz71/media/DSCN6339_zpsco8hook5.jpg.html)
(http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u458/95chevysilveradoz71/DSCN6342_zpsdeapwr0c.jpg) (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/95chevysilveradoz71/media/DSCN6342_zpsdeapwr0c.jpg.html)
(http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u458/95chevysilveradoz71/DSCN6370_zpsfycfhn80.jpg) (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/95chevysilveradoz71/media/DSCN6370_zpsfycfhn80.jpg.html)
(http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u458/95chevysilveradoz71/DSCN6407_zpswx7nmlri.jpg) (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/95chevysilveradoz71/media/DSCN6407_zpswx7nmlri.jpg.html)
(http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u458/95chevysilveradoz71/DSCN6408_zpsgs1ekqa3.jpg) (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/95chevysilveradoz71/media/DSCN6408_zpsgs1ekqa3.jpg.html)
(http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u458/95chevysilveradoz71/DSCN6410_zpsdv4zg5lj.jpg) (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/95chevysilveradoz71/media/DSCN6410_zpsdv4zg5lj.jpg.html)
(http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u458/95chevysilveradoz71/DSCN6411_zpsmvmy17ax.jpg) (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/95chevysilveradoz71/media/DSCN6411_zpsmvmy17ax.jpg.html)
(http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u458/95chevysilveradoz71/DSCN6412_zps0rqykxj7.jpg) (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/95chevysilveradoz71/media/DSCN6412_zps0rqykxj7.jpg.html)
(http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u458/95chevysilveradoz71/DSCN6413_zpswcti5bjd.jpg) (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/95chevysilveradoz71/media/DSCN6413_zpswcti5bjd.jpg.html)
(http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u458/95chevysilveradoz71/DSCN6414_zpswwuya9ag.jpg) (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/95chevysilveradoz71/media/DSCN6414_zpswwuya9ag.jpg.html)
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There are two partial VIN stampings on the firewall behind the AC/heat case which should match your dash VIN and title.
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There are two partial VIN stampings on the firewall behind the AC/heat case which should match your dash VIN and title.
so in theory Removing the box would reveal the stamping? How hard is that task? (sorry this is the first T/A ive gone in depth working on) Worked on a 76 just simple things, carpet, shocks, oil change, simple stuff
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Yes, you will see the stampings after you remove the case...which will take some time to get off ;)
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Very strange indeed. No cowl tag. VIN is for a 79 Van Nuys built car that is on dash. Door VIN and manufacture date,(12/80), are from an 81'. Computer and all the equipment under dash is from an 81'. Gas door is from an 81', but a lot of people use those on 79' model cars too. Gauges are from an 81' model and so is the bezel. Brake master cylinder is from an 81' model. The color of the floor panels, which looks to be factory paint, was not a factory color in 79'. The color looks to be paint code 20, which is Bright Blue Metallic from 1981. Check your build sheet that you found and see if it shows the car being built the last month of Dec. 1980. Look at block #1 on build sheet the bottom #'s in that block should have a 12-something for the date it was built. For example my car is a 79' and was built in March of 79', it has 03-21 in that block, which is March the 21st. I'm not saying it is an 81' model, but more signs point to it being an 81' than a 79'.
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Very strange indeed. No cowl tag. VIN is for a 79 Van Nuys built car that is on dash. Door VIN and manufacture date,(12/80), are from an 81'. Computer and all the equipment under dash is from an 81'. Gas door is from an 81', but a lot of people use those on 79' model cars too. Gauges are from an 81' model and so is the bezel. Brake master cylinder is from an 81' model. The color of the floor panels, which looks to be factory paint, was not a factory color in 79'. The color looks to be paint code 20, which is Bright Blue Metallic from 1981. Check your build sheet that you found and see if it shows the car being built the last month of Dec. 1980. Look at block #1 on build sheet the bottom #'s in that block should have a 12-something for the date it was built. For example my car is a 79' and was built in March of 79', it has 03-21 in that block, which is March the 21st. I'm not saying it is an 81' model, but more signs point to it being an 81' than a 79'.
thats what I found
(http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u458/95chevysilveradoz71/DSCN7277_zpsozvrskez.jpg) (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/95chevysilveradoz71/media/DSCN7277_zpsozvrskez.jpg.html)
(http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u458/95chevysilveradoz71/DSCN7278_zps7dqk0eio.jpg) (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/95chevysilveradoz71/media/DSCN7278_zps7dqk0eio.jpg.html)
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Yes, you will see the stampings after you remove the case...which will take some time to get off ;)
It shouldn't take to long since i dont have the compressor right? none of the lines are hooked up, just simple disconnecting and disassembly?
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Getting even more strange. The build sheet is from a 1980 Formula according to the vin on the sheet. Also the car according to the build sheet you have was built in Nov 1979 with the interior that is in the car now. The door sticker is a different vin from a 1981 car that was built in Dec 1980. Lastly the vin you have on the dash is from a 79' TA with a 403, 2nd digit is a w which stands for Trans Am. Looks to be 3 different vins so far.
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Getting even more strange. The build sheet is from a 1980 Formula according to the vin on the sheet. Also the car according to the build sheet you have was built in Nov 1979 with the interior that is in the car now. The door sticker is a different vin from a 1981 car that was built in Dec 1980. Lastly the vin you have on the dash is from a 79' TA with a 403, 2nd digit is a w which stands for Trans Am. Looks to be 3 different vins so far.
so thinking positive it could have been a interior swap or door swap? but in my opinion why would someone go through the trouble of putting a computer and swapping basically everything from another car to this one especially when the floorpans of this one are rusted out and the seat tracks and beyond gone
other than pulling the ac box what would be another step?
also whats the door vin? couldnt read it
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Sorry to say that everything posted points to a VIN swap.
The only VIN stamps to verify the issue are those behind the AC/heater case. Compare those to your dash and you will have a definite answer.
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Sorry to say that everything posted points to a VIN swap.
The only VIN stamps to verify the issue are those behind the AC/heater case. Compare those to your dash and you will have a definite answer.
anyone have a writeup on how to pull the ac box with the motor still in the car? Easiest way? I dont have the compressor so nothing was hooked up
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The door vin is the vin # on the driver side door sticker that you took a picture of. I can make out enough of it to see that it is 1981 vin listed that is different from the build sheet and the vin you have on the dash. You can also make the the manufacture date on the door sticker which was 12/80 or Dec. 1980. I would agree in saying that more than likely this car is not a 79' model. Very fishy that there is no cowl tag to verify anything either. You do not need any special tools to remove the suitcase, it is just hard to get to some of the nuts to remove them.
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The door vin is the vin # on the driver side door sticker that you took a picture of. I can make out enough of it to see that it is 1981 vin listed that is different from the build sheet and the vin you have on the dash. You can also make the the manufacture date on the door sticker which was 12/80 or Dec. 1980. I would agree in saying that more than likely this car is not a 79' model. Very fishy that there is no cowl tag to verify anything either. You do not need any special tools to remove the suitcase, it is just hard to get to some of the nuts to remove them.
ive changed the heater core on a 76 will i need to remove the heater box inside for any reason in order to get the ac box out? have to remove fender to pull ac box for easier access?
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Will be easier if you just remove the inner fender well, not the entire fender. Can get to everything much easier.
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Will be easier if you just remove the inner fender well, not the entire fender. Can get to everything much easier.
guess i gotta figure out where all the bolts for that are! this makes me more and more nervous, vins not matching is never a good thing
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The build sheet is definately from a 1980 Formula with code 11(cameo white) exterior, and code 26(blue) interior. As stated earlier, the door is from a 1981 Trans Am.
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The build sheet is definately from a 1980 Formula with code 11(cameo white) exterior, and code 26(blue) interior. As stated earlier, the door is from a 1981 Trans Am.
im gonna try and see what i can do as far as pulling the air box and if the vin is different then ill have the vin ran and hopefully comes back clear
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Ignore the door decal if it doesn't match, easily swapped out. Check the underhood build plate too, and how attached. Also, the rivets holding the dash plaque.
Oh wait, no cowl tag? Run. Not good.
Oh, saw VIN dash plate too. Not good either, nothing else on car matches '79 where it differs to 80/81. And that dash hole looks hacked up, sanded and filled. Not at all how it was from new. Bad news all round.
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Looking at the picture of the VIN you posted, it looks like there has been some filler work done in that area. Maybe a cowl change/repair with a different vin? Does the cowl have the 2 dash speakers?
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Looking at the picture of the VIN you posted, it looks like there has been some filler work done in that area. Maybe a cowl change/repair with a different vin? Does the cowl have the 2 dash speakers?
dash has two speakers (speakers arent there but yes)
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Looking at the picture of the VIN you posted, it looks like there has been some filler work done in that area. Maybe a cowl change/repair with a different vin? Does the cowl have the 2 dash speakers?
Looking at the picture of the VIN you posted, it looks like there has been some filler work done in that area. Maybe a cowl change/repair with a different vin? Does the cowl have the 2 dash speakers?
dash has two speakers (speakers arent there but yes)
Late 80' or 81' then. Only single center speaker in dash through 79' and early 80'.
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well heres some stampings ive caught on the car.
first is the passenger inner fender
(http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u458/95chevysilveradoz71/DSCN7286_zpsrnymteqm.jpg) (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/95chevysilveradoz71/media/DSCN7286_zpsrnymteqm.jpg.html)
second is the front core support
(http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u458/95chevysilveradoz71/DSCN7289_zpsnwkl5myq.jpg) (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/95chevysilveradoz71/media/DSCN7289_zpsnwkl5myq.jpg.html)
core support
(http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u458/95chevysilveradoz71/DSCN7290_zpsuctuv4aq.jpg) (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/95chevysilveradoz71/media/DSCN7290_zpsuctuv4aq.jpg.html)
this is on a bracket on the driver inner fender
(http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u458/95chevysilveradoz71/DSCN7291_zpss9pkevk0.jpg) (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/95chevysilveradoz71/media/DSCN7291_zpss9pkevk0.jpg.html)
here is the partial stamping behind the air box (didnt take the full thing off just the half closest to motor)
(http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u458/95chevysilveradoz71/DSCN7292_zpswjkokcc4.jpg) (http://s1068.photobucket.com/user/95chevysilveradoz71/media/DSCN7292_zpswjkokcc4.jpg.html)
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All handy details. They are mostly just the stamped part numbers for the fenders and support brackets, but a few there also have date codes of when made, I think it's the same photo. In the bigger picture it doesn't tell anything as these can be swapped out after a bump, but yes, still point to a late 1980+ car as dated. The extra dash speakers would never find themselves on the same panel as the '79 VIN plate.
Does the 114008 on firewall match anything so far? Normally I'd say that reads as 2BL- Pontiac 1981 Van Nuys and then the number. But others will jump in.
The buildsheet was inside the rear seat? Easily visible? Seems weird to leave it there if swapping them out.
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All handy details. They are mostly just the stamped part numbers for the fenders and support brackets, but a few there also have date codes of when made, I think it's the same photo. In the bigger picture it doesn't tell anything as these can be swapped out after a bump, but yes, still point to a late 1980+ car as dated. The extra dash speakers would never find themselves on the same panel as the '79 VIN plate.
Does the 114008 on firewall match anything so far? Normally I'd say that reads as 2BL- Pontiac 1981 Van Nuys and then the number. But others will jump in.
The buildsheet was inside the rear seat? Easily visible? Seems weird to leave it there if swapping them out.
I figured those other numbers were possibly production/part numbers but wasnt 100%, yes build sheet was 100% visible when i pulled the seat as well as there was no rear seat separation board (between seat and trunk) I'm not sure if those came factory or what? The 114008 doesnt match anything......Guess I'll go up to the police station see what they recommend as far as if they can run the numbers....Rather find out now rather then put time money and work into the car then just have it stripped from me. Nothing is adding up, 80-81 interior, build sheet doesnt even match the partial vin on the firewall behind ac box, nothings matching, title and dash vin match but dont match the buildsheet and interior and underhood things dont match up to the year vin the title and dash shows.........
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Yes, seeking advice doesn't hurt at all.
The fact there's no board behind the seats at least suggests that the seats have been out then.
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Yes, seeking advice doesn't hurt at all.
The fact there's no board behind the seats at least suggests that the seats have been out then.
now decoding that partial vin shows that the 114008 is the production number, the L is Van Nuys the B is 1981 but the 2 could possibly be the check number according to the 1981 vin decoders
this site under the 1981 shows that the 2 could be the check number
http://allgentransams.com/production_information/vin_decoder/gen2.html
It would in my opinion make more sense to have it bc the check* number rather then the number for pontiac bc if it was for pontiac (which it could possibly be) why would they skip numbers for the partial vin bc then it would be xx2xxxxxxBL114008 (the x's are for the unkown numbers that would be left out)
If the 2 is the check* number then the vin would be xxxxxxxx2BL114008
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The make number is 2 for Pontiac, tells it apart from a Camaro on the production line. Check digit is possible but it was new in 1981 and not sure how you'd check it anyway or know what it was.
There's date codes on a lot of things, even the glass, but if course these can be swapped so not conclusive but can paint a picture. Same too of the control arms visible either side of engine with date codes, these also differed in type for 81 compared to 79, again could have been swapped.
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I took the liberty of taking some pics of my '81 firebirds 3 vins and hopefully it will answer some questions. First photo is the vin on the dash BN123955 are the last 8 digits in the vin, 2nd photo is not the best but it is located under the A/C box just under the Blower motor hole BN123955, and the 3rd is in the same location as the one you posted BN123955. All 3 of these should match.
(http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o481/brenjewel/IMG_1285_zpsh9cua64q.jpg) (http://s1144.photobucket.com/user/brenjewel/media/IMG_1285_zpsh9cua64q.jpg.html)
(http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o481/brenjewel/IMG_1284_zpstpkvhnjw.jpg) (http://s1144.photobucket.com/user/brenjewel/media/IMG_1284_zpstpkvhnjw.jpg.html)
(http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o481/brenjewel/IMG_1283_zpsdab6yuta.jpg) (http://s1144.photobucket.com/user/brenjewel/media/IMG_1283_zpsdab6yuta.jpg.html)
I hope this helps.
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Also the '80-'81 vin rivets should visible on top of the dash.
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According to the partial vin you found behind the a/c case, you have an 81' T/A. Those digits match the digits that I can make out on the driver door vin which is 1G2AW87W1BL114008. The build sheet does not go with that car, again it is for an 80' Formula. Looks more like someone put a 79' VIN in place of the 81' VIN and filled in around it to cover where the rivets were on the dash. If you will look closely at the driver door sticker pics you took you can make out what I did and see that it does match. Car would have been manufactured in DEC. 1980 and that could be correct for the radiator support stampings that show a date of Sept. of 1980. I'm voting that it is mostly an 81' T/A, and according to that vin, came with the 301, built in Van Nuys.
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According to the partial vin you found behind the a/c case, you have an 81' T/A. Those digits match the digits that I can make out on the driver door vin which is 1G2AW87W1BL114008. The build sheet does not go with that car, again it is for an 80' Formula. Looks more like someone put a 79' VIN in place of the 81' VIN and filled in around it to cover where the rivets were on the dash. If you will look closely at the driver door sticker pics you took you can make out what I did and see that it does match. Car would have been manufactured in DEC. 1980 and that could be correct for the radiator support stampings that show a date of Sept. of 1980. I'm voting that it is mostly an 81' T/A, and according to that vin, came with the 301, built in Van Nuys.
Well all the numbers came up clean. The owner of the car with the vin that's on the build sheet I found has passed away so couldn't really do much. Just really concerns me how everything isn't right. Date codes and stampings in parts are 1980 which would make sense if the car is a 81. Should i just grab a piece of sand paper and see if i can lightly sand around the dash vin plate?
wait a sec, the ac box stamping is 2BL114008 How is that 7 digits the same as the 1G2AW87W1BL114008 ?
because the partial vin was split somewhat like this xx2xxxxxxBL114008? (x's being the numbers not listed on the partial vin under ac box.)
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The reason it is only partial is because they do not put the whole vin in those areas. 2(Pontiac), B(81),L(VanNuys), and the last numbers are the production numbers for that car.
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The reason it is only partial is because they do not put the whole vin in those areas. 2(Pontiac), B(81),L(VanNuys), and the last numbers are the production numbers for that car.
okay so the only way to tell if the vin has been filled over would be to pull the dash right? im not in depth familiar with these cars so is there a dash cage underneath the dash itself or is the vin attached to the actual plastic replacement? how hard would it be to remove.
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It looks to me like the 79' VIN that is on the dash was added there and filled in around. Does not look factory to me. If it indeed is an 81' T/A that VIN would be the long VIN that I posted earlier that is on the door and would have been riveted in with 2 rivets. Looks like someone may have cut out the original VIN and filled it to me. There is not one thing on that car that makes me believe it is a 79' other than that questionable VIN on the dash. Everything else points to an 81' model. JMO. The VIN is not part of the actually dash pad, it is on the actual cowl/body of the car in that area. The part where the VIN is located is metal not plastic.
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It looks to me like the 79' VIN that is on the dash was added there and filled in around. Does not look factory to me. If it indeed is an 81' T/A that VIN would be the long VIN that I posted earlier that is on the door and would have been riveted in with 2 rivets. Looks like someone may have cut out the original VIN and filled it to me. There is not one thing on that car that makes me believe it is a 79' other than that questionable VIN on the dash. Everything else points to an 81' model. JMO. The VIN is not part of the actually dash pad, it is on the actual cowl/body of the car in that area. The part where the VIN is located is metal not plastic.
that was my concern, i wasnt sure whether or not the vin tag was on the plastic cover or if it was in fact on the metal underneath, guess ill have to pull the dash to see if the vin plate is even more shitty looking under
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I had an 81 I bought with no title, vin on dash looked alittle messed up but hey, i didn't care. But I was curious. Everything matched nothing looked fixed up under the heater box inside or outside the firewall and even found the broadcast sheet, but the dash vin looked a little off and one rivet was painted and the other wasn't , that's why I was curious plus I got the car so cheap I gave him more then he told me he wanted.