Hitman's Pontiac Trans Am Forum
Trans Am Information => Trans Am Tech => DriveTrain => Topic started by: RainMan on September 16, 2009, 10:44:33 AM
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I have searched ,and not been able to find any info on what the factory cast 400 weighs? I read a 454 weighs 485 ,and that with aluminum heads and intake it only shaves off about a 100 pounds .
I was kinda curious more than anything about the comparison of the 2 . I wonder how much a 400 would weigh with aluminum heads and intake .
I did read in some other forum that the pontiac is about 75 pounds lighter than the BBC . I don't know if this info is correct or not .That would be a benefit for the pontiac right off the get go imo .
Someday when I get the funding ,I would like to put my numbers matching 400 in storage ,and build a stroker for the Marty . I see they actually make new blocks by Butler .
I wonder about going with aluminum for the block though ,as it makes me a little nervouse when I think about tighning a head bolt into straight aluminum . Maybe I am concerned about nothing ? I mean an all aluminum engine would be awesome ,better handling and weight distribution . I am sure you would have to get new front srpings just to keep the height down to factory specs again .
Anyways,for the most part I was curious about the differant amount of weight that would be involved for a BBC ,to a pontiac
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That's about right, a BBC is 75 - 100 pounds heavier than a Pontiac.
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how about a Buick 455.
The 455 was one of the first "thin-wall casting" engine blocks, and because of this advance in production technology it weighs significantly less than other engines of comparable size (for example, 150 lb (68 kg) less than a Chevrolet 454).
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You know ,I never thought about the pontiac being a thin wall casting . But when you think about it ,there has to be weight reduction some where in order to be 75 pounds lighter?
A thin casting kinda gives me a bad taste in my mouth lol . But I guess they seem to work . Are pontiacs more prone to over heating issues than a BBC because of the thin wall casting?
I actaully read that some where that pontiac block's have actually broke in half? Now that would be a major ,even the crank would be unsalvagable .
I gotta quit reading I guess ,the more I do the more paranoid I get .
Besides there's no way to get a shaker to fit a BBC that I know of . The only other option is a SMC . But I am still thinking a T/A is not the same unless it has a pontiac engine . Although I realise they put the SBC in 80 and up regardless .
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Look at the pics of Poorboys car, he has a chevy 502 and the shaker fits on it.
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I actaully read that some where that pontiac block's have actually broke in half? Now that would be a major ,even the crank would be unsalvagable .
That can happen to any engine. There are many different things that can cause major, catastrophic failure like that like a weakening/defect of the casting and/or over-revving for example.
The only other option is a SMC .
Now you know what my reaction to that statement is, right?
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The buick 455 weighed about as much as a small block chevy
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Pontiac V8s, "ready to ship", weigh in right at 650 lbs. That's with iron heads and a aluminum intake, no exhaust.
An iron-headed BBC weighs right at 800-820 lbs. Aluminum heads will save about 100 lbs. IMO, the sheer weight is the ONLY real "drawback" to BBC. GREAT engines.
Pontiac blocks HAVE been known to "split". The vast majority I've seen have been 455s. A 455 Pontiac block is weaker than a 400 Pontiac block, due to the "hole" down the middle being larger. The crank is NOT the "weak link" in ANY Pontiac build. Also, ALL of the "split" blocks were "race" engines, over 750 HP, revving beyond 7,000.
The Buick 455 IS light. As a "stocker", it's a good engine, making lots of torque. Due to the "thin wall" casting, it is rather weak. Pumping up the Buick CAN be done, but it must be done very carefully. Once the block's ability to withstand the "pounding" of racing is exceeded, the block flexes too much and the crank breaks. We have one example "out there" running mid 10s in a 3,400 lb. car. It never exceeds 6,000 RPM.
When the 400 Pontiac was introduced in '67, it was hailed as a "thin wall casting". While the cylinders ARE a bit "thinner" than the older 389s, the extrerior walls are a bit thicker, making it a stronger block. The exterior walls of the 389 were prone to cracking, so the changes were made. The 400 block weighs MAYBE 25 lbs. less than the 389. IMO, the 400 is the best of the "lot".
Camaros have BBCs in them. (real) Firebirds have Pontiacs...(:-
FWIW
Jim
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Thank you for the reply Guys ,and Thank you for posting Jim .
I am not at a stage where I can afford to get a new engine ,but more or less trying to see options .
In the future I am not really going to be very happy with 180 HP ,I can see that right now .
I don't want a 600HP engine ,or a 7000 rpm screamer , a lumpy cam,or forced to use 4.11 gears ,just enough HP where you don't have to try very hard to peel rubber in first ,and some 2nd gear tire spin would be kinda nice .The car is an auto ,that part sucks ,but I want to keep it stock .
I really want to keep things looking as stock as possible ,
so maybe it would be better to take my 400 I have now ,and someday get the stroker crank and 455 pistons . I guess a person could always paint aluminum heads to have the stock look? I wonder if getting the block to accept 455 pistons would be on the thin side? Or should a person just rebore 30 over and use the next size of 400 pistons, that way keeping the wall thinkness as thick as possible.
I read that people were boring it out further to except 455 pistons ,more or less to same money .I can't see the added cubic inches making a big differance bore wise with the 455 pistons .
Or maybe bite the bullet and build a completely differant engine . I could see a Butler engine build adding up fast . 15 G would probably be just a good start . As you may as well start from the ground up with one of there new block's considering you are getting newer proven technology. Don't know how stock it would look though . You would think the block should look simular enough for the average person off the street not to notice .
But I suspect most people are building Butler engines for 9 second quarter miles lol . Next I'll have to strengthen the frame , tranny,diff ,etc YIKES this is getting out of hand :o
btw Mr P body ,you are right ,a real Firebird has a Pontiac engine . It pains me to even think of a chevy engine in a T/A
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You would be better off building your 400.
The big block chevy is not only heavier,but wider and taller.
If you really want to store your current engine,don't go with a Buick 455.
The Buick needs a lot of mods to make big horsepower,and has a weak oiling system.
I have a 73 centurion,and parts are extremely expensive.
High performance rebuilds usually require girdles,along with other strengthing of the blocks.
Torque is the mainstay of the Buick motors,not high rpm or horsepower.
The pontiac motors are engineered better,IMHO.
The chevy Big block is a heck of a motor,but I don't see many in pony cars.
I imagine the suspension takes quite a beating with the added weight.
A full framed car would carry the Big chevy a little better.
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If you really want to store your current engine,don't go with a Buick 455.
The Buick needs a lot of mods to make big horsepower,and has a weak oiling system.
I have a 73 centurion,and parts are extremely expensive.
High performance rebuilds usually require girdles,along with other strengthing of the blocks.
Torque is the mainstay of the Buick motors,not high rpm or horsepower.
The pontiac motors are engineered better,IMHO.
Im not trying to be an a** or argumentitive, just stating FACTS as I have seen them.
I have just over 5K in MY Buick build, with a complete stock bottom end.. No girdle, No other strengthing of the block, yet is was dynoed at 575hp and 565 lb/ft. My brother has been running solid high 10s for over 5 years with the exact same combo without any problems. I also have friends that are running faster, well into the 7k rpm range. Oh and the oiling mods cost me about $250. I understand that this is a Pontiac forum and my thoughts are the minority. I didnt plan on building a Buick, but I am very happy with what I have now.
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You would be better off building your 400.
The big block chevy is not only heavier,but wider and taller.
If you really want to store your current engine,don't go with a Buick 455.
The Buick needs a lot of mods to make big horsepower,and has a weak oiling system.
I have a 73 centurion,and parts are extremely expensive.
High performance rebuilds usually require girdles,along with other strengthing of the blocks.
Torque is the mainstay of the Buick motors,not high rpm or horsepower.
The pontiac motors are engineered better,IMHO.
The chevy Big block is a heck of a motor,but I don't see many in pony cars.
I imagine the suspension takes quite a beating with the added weight.
A full framed car would carry the Big chevy a little better.
I would not go with a buick . I pretty much would stay with a pontiac engine only . Seems like a pain somedays ,but it's pretty much the only option to me.
I did not though there were readily available parts for pontiacs anymore . I found a few links ,and you can buy an actual aluminum or cast block brand new .
All aluminum would be the ultimate ,but a could see me stripping a bolt and going off the deep end lol .
I think a stroker 400 with modern aluminum heads and intake may be the answer . Just as long as the shaker height stays correct
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I have just over 5K in MY Buick build, with a complete stock bottom end.. No girdle, No other strengthing of the block, yet is was dynoed at 575hp and 565 lb/ft. My brother has been running solid high 10s for over 5 years without any problems. I also have friends that are running faster, well itno the 7k rpm range. Oh and the oiling mods cost me about $250.
Wow those are some impressive numbers .I'd be happy with HP in the mid 400's
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Think about this, most Trans ams didnt come from the factory with a Pontiac motor. All of them from 69-76 did. Then from 77-81 they could have had a Pontiac, Chevy, or an Olds. After 92 ALL cars came with a Chevy motor! Unlike others here I didnt say the Buick motor was better than the Pontiac, I just pointed out what I have done and seen done.
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77-79 Trans Ams didnt have a chevy engine
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A decently built Pontiac 400 with stock e-heads will get you 450 hp- just use good forged rods and lightweight pistons and that 400 will rev real nice.
Most 400/462 strokers with 250 cfm or better heads make at least 475-500 hp and 550 ft-lbs, so unless you want to get into beefing your drivetrain the 450 hp e-headed 400 is a simpler route to improved power (most likely better on gas than a 462 also).
Geno
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If you really want to store your current engine,don't go with a Buick 455.
The Buick needs a lot of mods to make big horsepower,and has a weak oiling system.
I have a 73 centurion,and parts are extremely expensive.
High performance rebuilds usually require girdles,along with other strengthing of the blocks.
Torque is the mainstay of the Buick motors,not high rpm or horsepower.
The pontiac motors are engineered better,IMHO.
Im not trying to be an a** or argumentitive, just stating FACTS as I have seen them.
I have just over 5K in MY Buick build, with a complete stock bottom end.. No girdle, No other strengthing of the block, yet is was dynoed at 575hp and 565 lb/ft. My brother has been running solid high 10s for over 5 years with the exact same combo without any problems. I also have friends that are running faster, well into the 7k rpm range. Oh and the oiling mods cost me about $250. I understand that this is a Pontiac forum and my thoughts are the minority. I didnt plan on building a Buick, but I am very happy with what I have now.
Take a look at the prices at ta performance.
$400 for a basic intake manifold.
$400 for basic headers.
The price to build a Buick motor is higher than anything else I've seen.
Probably because not many people buy enough parts to justify the production costs.
I have nothing against the Buick motor,as I own one(455).
But I wouldn't spend money building a motor with a known weakness.
The chevy motors are easier to work on,the parts are cheaper,and you have many more choices for a chassis.
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77-79 Trans Ams didnt have a chevy engine
Well I didnt break it down enough for you obviously, so 77-79 came with a Pontiac or Olds, and 80-81 Came with a Pontiac or Chevy. So for the 1st 8 yrs they ALL had Pontiac power, then the next 5 yrs near half didnt, then after 82 no Pontiac motor was offered.
Most of the parts in my build were from TA performance, so I do know the prices. Yes they are higher, but dare to be different. lol
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Think about this, most Trans ams didnt come from the factory with a Pontiac motor. All of them from 69-76 did. Then from 77-81 they could have had a Pontiac, Chevy, or an Olds. After 92 ALL cars came with a Chevy motor! Unlike others here I didnt say the Buick motor was better than the Pontiac, I just pointed out what I have done and seen done.
I wasn't bashing your engine Lom ,I would just fiind it weird telling people I have a Buick in my T/A . I don't have eniough knowledge to say what pros and cons each engine has . But seeing as I have a pontiac 400 ,I would like to stay with it is all .
77-79 Trans Ams didnt have a chevy engine
No I believe it was either the 400 pontiac ,till they ran out of them I heard ,then they put in the olds 403 .Maybe it was demographics ,not sure.
But in 80 -81 ,they got the 305 SBC .
Ok I stand corrected ,according to Lom you could still get a 400 in 80 -81?
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Any headaches installing that Buick into the TA?
I imagine your running an auto,but how about the other accessories.
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Well I have to go for cruise in the Marty and get a Lotto ticket . I need 20G for an all aluminum Butler long block lol
Wish me luck Guys :D
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No, the install was pretty simple, motor went in with the headers attached to the block. I dont have AC, and all of it was gone before I got the car, and yes an auto. It is a 2004r. And No Rainman, the Pontiac motors in 80-81 were the 4.9 liter 301's. I only did the Buick because that was what was available to me at the time.
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A decently built Pontiac 400 with stock e-heads will get you 450 hp- just use good forged rods and lightweight pistons and that 400 will rev real nice.
Most 400/462 strokers with 250 cfm or better heads make at least 475-500 hp and 550 ft-lbs, so unless you want to get into beefing your drivetrain the 450 hp e-headed 400 is a simpler route to improved power (most likely better on gas than a 462 also).
Geno2
How much is it to build a 400 to get 450 horse?
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No, the install was pretty simple, motor went in with the headers attached to the block. I dont have AC, and all of it was gone before I got the car, and yes an auto. It is a 2004r. And No Rainman, the Pontiac motors in 80-81 were the 4.9 liter 301's. I only did the Buick because that was what was available to me at the time.
Oh DUH! I am so brain dead today ,thanks for reminding me . Like I owned an 80 turbo for crying out loud ,shseeeesh
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A decently built Pontiac 400 with stock e-heads will get you 450 hp- just use good forged rods and lightweight pistons and that 400 will rev real nice.
Most 400/462 strokers with 250 cfm or better heads make at least 475-500 hp and 550 ft-lbs, so unless you want to get into beefing your drivetrain the 450 hp e-headed 400 is a simpler route to improved power (most likely better on gas than a 462 also).
Geno2
How much is it to build a 400 to get 450 horse?
I think the answer is how much reliability do you want also ,thats where the money tree is needed
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With decent reliability ;D
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All the factory motors are reliable stock if you keep them at a reasonable rpm and don't over carburate them.
The blocks are the hardest parts to find,as they are the first items detonated by broken pistons,rods,crankshafts,and other internal parts.
I intend to try to keep my current motors as long as possible,and keep them at a relatively low rpm.
One of the reasons torque is so important.
Most complete crate motors I've seen run about $6000+,for big displacement.
Some chevy small blocks can be had starting around $2000.
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All the factory motors are reliable stock if you keep them at a reasonable rpm and don't over carburate them.
The blocks are the hardest parts to find,as they are the first items detonated by broken pistons,rods,crankshafts,and other internal parts.
I intend to try to keep my current motors as long as possible,and keep them at a relatively low rpm.
One of the reasons torque is so important.
Most complete crate motors I've seen run about $6000+,for big displacement.
Some chevy small blocks can be had starting around $2000.
I really want a torque monster if anything . RPMs are not really my thing . Thats why the 4.25 stroker crank may work well for the type of power that I like . I seen one engine that had a 4.25 bore and a 4.25 stroke ,keeping things square again
I was checking this Butler perfomance site again ,and see they make a 4.5 inch crank with 3 inch journals . Not that would create some torque I suspect
http://www.butlerperformance.com/
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Just go with a turbine.
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Just go with a turbine.
I seen Jay Lenos turbine car the EVO I think it was called . I just wish I had his resources
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One thing to think about. I know cost is a big factor. But if the fear of stripping bolts keeps you awake at night, aluminum is easier to repair them in. We use aluminum for the main support of some of our molds at work. Since we have to constantly put them in and take them out of the machines we are constantly stripping bolts. Most of them would be junk by now if they were made of anything harder. But the aluminum is child's play to rethread.
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A 450 hp 400 is easy and could be done for less than $4500, including e-heads. That motor would also have forged KB pistons and Tomahawk 5140 rods, PRW stainless roller rockers, etc.so it would be reliable. But for $4k you could also build a 400/462 stroker capped w/ ported 6x-8's or 6x-4's and make 475-500 hp and 525 ft/lbs.
The budget 462 stroker would be plenty of motor- you'll need some wide slicks or drag radials on 17 x 11's to hook up with that much power on tap. It's nice to fantasize about all aluminum 540's making 750+ hp, but in reality an aluminum headed, 550-575 hp 462 stroker is overkill, unless you run the Silver State Classic on a regular basis.
Geno
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Sorry, guys, add $1000-1500 to those prices if you have a pro build it- that's my cost and with me building my own motor. ;D
Geno
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A 450 hp 400 is easy and could be done for less than $4500, including e-heads. That motor would also have forged KB pistons and Tomahawk 5140 rods, PRW stainless roller rockers, etc.so it would be reliable. But for $4k you could also build a 400/462 stroker capped w/ ported 6x-8's or 6x-4's and make 475-500 hp and 525 ft/lbs.
The budget 462 stroker would be plenty of motor- you'll need some wide slicks or drag radials on 17 x 11's to hook up with that much power on tap. It's nice to fantasize about all aluminum 540's making 750+ hp, but in reality an aluminum headed, 550-575 hp 462 stroker is overkill, unless you run the Silver State Classic on a regular basis.
Geno
A 462 stroker sounds good to me . I would do all the work myself also . So thats using a 4.25 stroke crank with a 4.12 bore 30 over?
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One thing to think about. I know cost is a big factor. But if the fear of stripping bolts keeps you awake at night, aluminum is easier to repair them in. We use aluminum for the main support of some of our molds at work. Since we have to constantly put them in and take them out of the machines we are constantly stripping bolts. Most of them would be junk by now if they were made of anything harder. But the aluminum is child's play to rethread.
I just cant see where retapping a thread after being stripped would leave very much strength afterwards?
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Yep- $4k for a 6x- capped 462 that should make 475-500 hp. I have two blocks to choose from, both 481988's, but one is already .030 over and the other .040, so I'll have to see which pistons are available for a .040 or .060 overbore and go from there.
I'm using PPR's stroker kit and going with a Crower 60919 w/ 1.65 roller rockers. I might even pop for the forged crank upgrade, since it's only $300 more.
Geno
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Yep- $4k for a 6x- capped 462 that should make 475-500 hp. I have two blocks to choose from, both 481988's, but one is already .030 over and the other .040, so I'll have to see which pistons are available for a .040 or .060 overbore and go from there.
I'm using PPR's stroker kit and going with a Crower 60919 w/ 1.65 roller rockers. I might even pop for the forged crank upgrade, since it's only $300 more.
Geno
Geno ,how do you find the characteristics of the engine having more stroke than bore . Does it seem sluggish ,or slow to rev?
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RainMan,
The engine perameters of a 4.25" stroker 400 have already been worked out- they rev well due to the smaller BBC bearing and 3" main (vs. a standard 455). The 400 may be undersquare but with that long stroke it will make alot more power than with the 3.75 crank- the high piston speed from the 4.25 stroke is what fills the cylinders faster and makes that power at TDC. It also puts high loads on those pistons, which is why you don't build a stroker with cast pistons.
The 455 is the slow revver, due the larger 3.25 main journal diameter. If you look at BBC's and Mopar 440's both of those have much smaller main journals and are also good revvers. The rod/ stroke ratio also comes into play here- the 400/462 stroker has a 1.6, vs. the 455 Pontiac 's 1.57. A stock 400 has a 1.77 ratio for comparison, which explains part of the reason that motor is also a good revver.
Geno
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RainMan,
The engine perameters of a 4.25" stroker 400 have already been worked out- they rev well due to the smaller BBC bearing and 3" main (vs. a standard 455). The 400 may be undersquare but with that long stroke it will make alot more power than with the 3.75 crank- the high piston speed from the 4.25 stroke is what fills the cylinders faster and makes that power at TDC. It also puts high loads on those pistons, which is why you don't build a stroker with cast pistons.
The 455 is the slow revver, due the larger 3.25 main journal diameter. If you look at BBC's and Mopar 440's both of those have much smaller main journals and are also good revvers. The rod/ stroke ratio also comes into play here- the 400/462 stroker has a 1.6, vs. the 455 Pontiac 's 1.57. A stock 400 has a 1.77 ratio for comparison, which explains part of the reason that motor is also a good revver.
Geno
Ok I was wondering how you get 462 cu inches . I guess if you take a stock 400 with a 4.12 bore ,and get the cylnders rebored out .04 ,then you end up close to 462 by my calculations with a 4.25 crank
What is BBC ,the con rod bearing?
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Ok I was wondering how you get 462 cu inches . I guess if you take a stock 400 with a 4.12 bore ,and get the cylnders rebored out .04 ,then you end up close to 462 by my calculations with a 4.25 crank
Right. It would then be the same cid as a .030 over 455 Olds in a slightly smaller package. ;)
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Don't mean to jump right into the conversation but what are e-heads? Thanks!
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I personally wouldn't bore out a standard bore 400 .040 over unless it needed it- the good 70-75 481988 blocks are starting to get hard to find. And as far as identifying a motor by it's CID, like a 454 (BBC) or 383 (SBC or Mopar), I admit I like the 462 name for a stroked 400 Pontiac w/ a 4.25 crank, but even a 460 (.030) or a 466 (.060) still could be confusing unless you called it a Pontiac.
BBC- Big Block Chevy
e-heads- Edelbrock aluminum heads
Geno
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Rainman,
I am looking into building a 400 stroker for my Marty as well. I was looking at exactly what your looking for. I will share a tip I got from other guys on the forum.... Talk to Jim at CVMS. http://www.centralvirginiamachine.com/. Believe me I looked around and got in touch with a lot of builders. His prices are great and he builds then to suit your needs. Its well worth the call.