Hitman's Pontiac Trans Am Forum
Trans Am Information => Trans Am Information => Topic started by: pontiacman on January 23, 2010, 10:02:01 AM
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what are the production numbers on the y 88s.
they only built them for a few months in 78, right?
im trying to talk this guy out of his "old gold car" and i was wondering if it was worth restoring.
car is in good shape but it is very tire and worn
he also has a 79 y 84 with so much vegitation growing up around it you can hardly see it.
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They made about 8,000 of them. Brett has those numbers on this site that you could look up. I know they made 880 with the 403. For a comparison, I have a pretty much solid body car that does need the front floor pans replaced (it appears that the kick panels leaked), new interior, and paint....plus lots of mechanical work. But there is no other rust in the body. The engine and transmission are sound. I paid $2,800 for my Y88 403 last October. It was pretty much complete but there are a few things I had to scrounge up.
Expect to put a lot of money into it. That way you won't be disappointed if you do, and you'll be happy if things turn out better than you thought. But they are beautiful cars when they're freshened up.
Also, make sure it's a Y88 and not simply a gold T/A. One way to check is the T-Tops have a gold tint in the glass and they actually say gold on them. I know these can be added, but there are other clues to look for sans a build sheet. If you're really in doubt, pay for the PHS document on the car and you'll know for sure.
If it's too rusty....pass on it. Find one that isn't.
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If you need convincing to restore one....find me, I'll post some pics of mine :)
$$ Wise, you'd put the same into restoring any TA. There's really nothing on them that's specific to the Y88 other than the following:
Gold T-Tops
Gold tinted windshield
Those are the only differences. All the rest of the stuff was common place on any TA.
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You could only order the Y88 for a few months early in the year, but they kept producing them throughout the remained of the year to fill the orders. You can see the production numbers here: http://www.78ta.com/production.php A few of the dead giveaways on the Y88 is the Gold T-tops (no gold windshield) and the Camel Tan steering column. Regular Gold Trans Ams didn't have the Gold T-tops and their steering column was black instead of tan.
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it does have the gold tops and i saw a part of the build sheet to confirm
as for the y 84 its stanped on the cowl plate
ill grab pics this weekend and put them in my photobucket
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You could only order the Y88 for a few months early in the year, but they kept producing them throughout the remained of the year to fill the orders. You can see the production numbers here: http://www.78ta.com/production.php A few of the dead giveaways on the Y88 is the Gold T-tops (no gold windshield) and the Camel Tan steering column. Regular Gold Trans Ams didn't have the Gold T-tops and their steering column was black instead of tan.
Good Info...... first time I've heard that all Y88's came with Tan steering column.
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Hey Brett...Not to argue with you but the Y88 I have has a gold tint to the windshield instead of the standard blue across the top. One of the things I noticed when I dug into it...
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as a glass guy my soft ware does not back your thought. they had only one option of windsheild in 1978 and that was soft ray glass (green tint with a dark blue shade band on the top)
I have also had 2 y88's neither of them had any kind of gold sheen to the windsheild. both windsheilds were original on both cars.
other things not mentioned were the following items
gold nose crest emblem, gold bird in the shift button (if automatic)
gold bird on door panel inserts (if power windows)
gold bird in the wheel center caps
gold bird in the hord button
gold spoke steering wheel with tan wrap
tan steering column
gold dash bezel (probably faded to silver if original by now)
gold in the grille by the following sceme chrome outter gold wrap around and black in the back by the headlights
a brown molded pinstriping located all over the car
gold snow flake wheels all except the outter flat edge on 7 in and 8 inch wheels.l
black tail light bezels
gold tinted t-tops.
all of this can be added to any gold t/a so build sheet and or phs is helpful to add to the fact.
They dont call me y88 rick for no reason!! lol
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There were no Y88 wheels. They got the normal snowflake wheels that all the other Trans Am's got. However, I'm not sure if you could order rally wheels with the Y88. I believe there were examples of black and gold SE's with gold accented rally wheels.
Funny that you could get color matching steering columns in the Formula but not the Trans Am. I wonder why that was.
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All I can say is that the front windshield (banner across the top) on my Y88 is definitely gold tinted. Does not have the typical blue running across it. No idea if its original or not to the car. If anyone has info on where I can find that out, I'll happily check it.
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I just went out and looked at the windshield on my Y88 even though I don't believe it's original. It does look like a gold tint to me. However, it says on the glass "green shaded blue".
What numbers are on that window? Y88Rick should be able to cross reference it, wouldn't he?
The numbers should be on either the passenger or drivers side corner.
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or in the center. keep in mind guys the older the windsheild that blue shad band fades and changes color as it is only dye in the laminate. some look purple after being 30 years old or more.
yes they got the normal snowflake wheels ta78w72, however the face of the snowflake was painted as well all except the outtermost lip on them.
(http://www.78ta.com/gallery2/main.php/d/10483-1/PB181043.JPG)
look on my picture posted to get a much larger view of what a true y88 wheel is supposed to look like ws6 or not 7 or 8 inch. all gold minus the outter lip.
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All I can say is that the front windshield (banner across the top) on my Y88 is definitely gold tinted. Does not have the typical blue running across it. No idea if its original or not to the car. If anyone has info on where I can find that out, I'll happily check it.
Definately sounds like the windshield is not original to the car. There will be codes on the glass to determine the date of manufacture of that windshield.
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Nope, that's a 1978 WS6 15X8 wheel painted the wrong color. It's not a Y88 wheel. If you ordered a Y88 without WS6, you got the normal 15X7 snowflake just like all the other 15X7 snowflakes. If you ordered a Y88 with WS6, you got the 15X8 wheel just like all the other WS6 cars.
The WS6 wheel was painted a dirty gold color.....almost a brown gold.
In 1979 they changed the paint color of the WS6 wheel and machined the outer edges. Brett and I have disagreed about when the machined edge WS6 wheels were introduced. He believes they came out during the latter part of the 1978 model year and I believe they came out with the 1979 model year.
And, on the windshield, I agree with you. It justs looks gold but I think it's the normal tint that's faded. Besides, I believe mine has been replaced. But wouldn't it be interesting if, after all these years, we find another wrinkle?
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well them wheels were original to that y88. it was a later build 78 almost end of the run. they were painted like that right from the factory. yes they were painted just like a ws6 car my other y88 that my uncle now owns had came with 7 inch wheels. painted the exact same way and that is a 24,000 actual mile car. i have been into y88's since 1995 i have had a very long time to study that particular trans am all in itself.
as for the windsheild this is what happens over time. its just fade look at this non y88 regular ta windsheild its just fade in the dye.
so not to burst any bubble but i will side with brett on it as i have owned two that has proven this whether you chose to be open minded about it is your choice.
(http://www.78ta.com/gallery2/main.php/d/24799-1/AUT_0113.jpg)
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as for the y 84 its stanped on the cowl plate
You mean Y88, right?
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http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Pontiac-Trans-Am-1978-Trans-Am-Gold-SE-Smokey-Bandit-Firebird-Muscle_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem5ad6711a7cQQitemZ390144793212QQptZUSQ5fCarsQ5fTrucks
here is an original y88 right now proves mine and bretts theroy yet again
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Funny, that picture proves what I was saying. Compare the dirty brown/gold color of that wheel to your picture. The wheels in this picture are of the 1978 WS6 wheels. Those are not standard on all Y88 cars unless they got the WS6 package.
Also, that's nowhere near an original car.
Go here and read "myth #9"
http://www.firebirdtransamparts.com/bandit/myth.htm
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http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Pontiac-Trans-Am-1978-Trans-Am-Gold-SE-Smokey-Bandit-Firebird-Muscle_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem5ad6711a7cQQitemZ390144793212QQptZUSQ5fCarsQ5fTrucks
here is an original y88 right now proves mine and bretts theroy yet again
I wouldn't call that an "original" car since it has a 455 ;)
And you need to consider the source before using this seller as reference since this is the guy that gives away free cereal with every purchase :D :D :D
(he also mistakenly calls the snowflakes "honeycombs" :P )
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Actually the 15x8 wheels were ALL painted like early in 78 that Rick. Sometime mid-year thay changed all but the Y88 15x 8 wheels to the machined lip. Check out my Spotlight page
http://www.78ta.com/smf/index.php?topic=5059.0, These wheels were FACTORY installed, as I have the buils sheet to prove it, and I can trace the car Back to the original owner. Also the black taillight surround is also a ALL 78 thing. Most people dont do this when they repaint the car.
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Here's a pic of 1 of 2 of the original gold '78 15x8 rims I have which shows the correct darker/dirty gold Russ mentions
(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n236/79ws6resto/82_1.jpg)
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Yep, and check out the link I posted as an edit.
Also, let's clear up something else. The black tail did not come on ALL 1978 Trans Ams. That's one change that happened sometime during or after January 1978.
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Agreed...I have a service bulletin which dates the change to black bezels in/around March '78.
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Sorry, but I was trying to say is that it was NOT just on Y88 cars, neither were the wheels.
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But, on the black tail light bezel. Does anyone know the process they went through to paint the bezel? I didn't realize this until John007 pointed it out on my Y88, but it does look like the bezel was color coded gold then sprayed black over the gold. So, they must have added a step to make the bezel black if that was the case.
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I wasnt making a mention of the color of the wheel i was talking about how it was painted. the color of the wheels on my former y88 were repainted by me in that picture, paint supplied by hitman. I wasnt arguing that so please dont think i was.... I was talking about how its painted. I also was not stating that only y88's came with black tails rather that all y88's came with black tails never color keyed to the car like early regular 78's were. (non y88) As far as using that car I linked as refference, I could have shot you 100 pictures easily found on the net. my big problem is every single y88 i found on the net has 8in wheels and the only one that didnt were not even gold. I think you missed my points and instead just quick to want to argue rather than reading what i was actually saying.
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he has two se's the y88 with proof being build sheet and the y84 whith is stamped on the cowl plate
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well by all means buddy if he has proof by build sheet and its savable go and get her despite all the disagreement on here.
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I wasnt making a mention of the color of the wheel i was talking about how it was painted. the color of the wheels on my former y88 were repainted by me in that picture, paint supplied by hitman. I wasnt arguing that so please dont think i was.... I was talking about how its painted. I also was not stating that only y88's came with black tails rather that all y88's came with black tails never color keyed to the car like early regular 78's were. (non y88) As far as using that car I linked as refference, I could have shot you 100 pictures easily found on the net. my big problem is every single y88 i found on the net has 8in wheels and the only one that didnt were not even gold. I think you missed my points and instead just quick to want to argue rather than reading what i was actually saying.
Here's what you said:
"gold snow flake wheels all except the outter flat edge on 7 in and 8 inch wheels"
Which upon rereading...makes no sense at all. What exactly were you trying to say? My point was there is nothing special about the Y88 wheels. They got the same wheels as the other Trans Ams. It may be that they came with snowflakes, while the other Trans Am's could come with rally wheels. The other thing I was wondering was whether or not the Y88 could be ordered with gold accented rally wheels. That I don't have a clue about (and I don't know why someone would want that).
If you were saying that all Y88's got the 15X8 wheels, I don't think that's true. If you read Joe Bay's Myth #9 you'll see that is a common misconception. Also, check out his picture of "gold fever". It's a Y88 without the WS6 option and it has the 15X7 wheels that have the machined unpainted edges.
The 1978 WS6 15X8 wheel was a one year wonder. In my opinion, it's not as nice as the wheel that took it's place. But my Y88 has those original WS6 wheels.
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My Y88 is not a WS6 car, and has the 15x7 wheels as shown. I had the wheels painted the color you see, might not be "correct" but I love 'em! And yes, it truly is a Y88, PHS documented. This photo was taken before the decals/pinstriping was applied.
(http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd43/pointman19_photos/October242007005.jpg)
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If that color isn't "correct" it's got to be pretty darn close. They look great!
Basically, that's what I was trying to say. Without WS6 you got the regular snowflakes. With WS6 you got the 15X8 dirty gold snowflakes just like the black T/A's with WS6.
Y88Rick, sorry if I came across argumentative. I wasn't trying to be.
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I believe what Rick was trying to say it that the Y88 had gold out to the lip ( instead of being machined) on the 15x8 wheels. Which is correct for the Y88, but ALL early 15x8 snowflakes had the same gold lip.I know that Brett has the service bulleten on this, but I dont know if it is onthe site.
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I'm not Brett ;) ...but is this the bulletin you mean?
(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n236/79ws6resto/c66450e0.jpg)
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That is 1 of them Jeff, and then ther is the one about the change to the other style, but good detective work. ;)
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that is what i was saying each and every single time. BUT and heres the big BUT!!! I too have owned a non ws6 y88. to this day it only has 24,000 actual miles as it hasnt been on the road since the early 80's YES with the 7 inch wheels on it.
here is the other thing i have been saying and i dont know how much more clearer I can spell this out for you.
on my all original y88 that i bought back in 1995 from its original owner 74 years old at the time.
my 7 inch wheels were just like the ws6 wheel was. meaning a non machined face with only the outter lip being machined and not gold.
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Ok guys lets just drop this topic because A.) It is not productiive and B.) No one has yet to be able to actually prove this point one way or another. So let me just put my thoughts in here on this the way I see it and you guys can take it for what it is worth.
First, all 15x7 inch snowflakes were finished like this rim:
(http://www.78ta.com/images/rims15x7gold.JPG)
It does not matter if the car is a regular Trans Am, a Y82, a Y84, or a Y88. The cars in 1977 and the non-WS6 cars in 1978 and later came with this snowflake style rim painted and finished like the rim shown above.
As far as the 15x8 snowflake rim that started in 1978, yes ALL GOLD rims that were ordered came finished like this rim:
(http://www.78ta.com/144a5e070.jpg)
The argent (grey) rims did have all the machined edges like this rim:
(http://www.78ta.com/d5d5e3e0.jpg)
But all the gold rims were painted all in the middle except the outside edge. Does not matter if the car was a Special Edition or not... ALL 15x8 GOLD snowflake rims were like shown above. And like ta78w72 said earlier, when they changed to the machined edge like the argent rims is till left up to debate because there is no solid hard proof one way or another. It may be one of those debates that never gets settled once and for all with solid evidence. So take it for what it is worth and lets not try and beat a dead horse here.
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I would also like to add this as well with other statements about when anyone (no one specific because I get ALOT of emails about this so it is not just on this Forum) states about something coming on a car. I get alot of emails with people talking about what came on thier car and what didn't. About how tey are the second owner and alot of people who are original owners of cars will argue points with me about what is factory and what is not. Fisrt of all, if anyone is a second owner of a car, you never can tell what was changed in the cars history before you got the car. Anything could have been done by the previous owner whether the previous owner admit to knowing about it or not. Also, I get arguements from original owners stating how they "drove it off the Delaers lots that way" and it is "all original". Again with that arguement, Delaers have also been known to make changes and additions to cars when it arrives on their lot. Lomieta can also agree to this with his 10th Anniversary. I have had original owners argue with me back and forth about how the car alarm came on thier car when they bought it new. Just because it left the Dealer's lot that way DOES NOT mean it left the Factory that way. There is a difference between "Dealer Installed" and "Factory Installed". So just because you drove it off the lot like that and are the original owner does not mean it is "Factory" which is where alot of the debates come in. Same thing with the rims being painted all gold... maybe the Dealer got the car in and someone messed up the rims so the Dealer did a quick paint job on the rims to do a "quick fix". No one knows why a car left a dealer in a certain state or condition or not. So, unless you are a GM Pontiac Factory worker who walked down the entire assembly line from start to finish with photos and documentary proof about the build process and rode with it to the Dealer to buy it (again with photos), then trying to prove a point one way or another is kinda difficult. So I think we can all just state our points once and tell "our side" of things with what we know and then move on and let others make up thier own minds about it.
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So take it for what it is worth and lets not try and beat a dead horse here.
Amen! Remember one very important fact about the automotive industry pre 1984, quality was not job #1. I cannot tell you how many GM people I have talked to over the years, but they all said the same thing: Getting production numbers was the only priority-PERIOD! The Fisher Body plant here in Kalamazoo stamped the roofs and trunks for 2nd Gen. Firebirds/Trans Ams/Formulas. I know for a fact that when the Stamping Press Line ran out of the correct coil stock for the stampings, they would grab whatever coil stock they had and run it. So to say that any component produced during this era was 100% correct, is an incorrect statement. Unless you were there when production was run, I doubt any one of us can validate the process or component. Don't sweat what you can't control, just enjoy the ride!