Hitman's Pontiac Trans Am Forum
Trans Am Information => Trans Am Tech => Electrical => Topic started by: Wild Bill on June 25, 2009, 09:27:15 PM
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Okay, so I pulled my 403 and dropped in my rebuilt 400.
Everything hooked to the motor is brand new
I hooked the ground from the body under the car to the bell housing
I hooked the ground from the back of the passenger head to the firewall
I hooked the ground from the battery to the engine
I replaced the engine wiring harness cause the 403 is not the same as the 400.
I replaced it just fine, I hooked up the wire to the starter, the pink wire up to the distributor, I hooked up all the sensor wires, to the alternator, etc...
I have voltage at the battery.
When I check the voltage at the starter, the multimeter jumps readings as if there isn't a ground to the starter!
Now the engine was painted....????? Am I not receiving a good connection from where the starter touches the engine??
What can I spray up in there to "eat" away the paint that IS there so I can get a good contact?
Does anyone else think it's the paint on the engine where the starter touches?
BTW, I'm not very technical when it comes to the multimeter...... Basic stuff is all I can do... No idea how to really use it to check for continuity or whatever through the lines.
Thanks
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I dont think it is the paint.
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Are you sure you hooked up the wiring to the solenoid correctly?
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yeah, it's 2 post.
the little wire from the wire harness to the ign side and then the battery terminal wire to the bat side of the solenoid
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Is the starter new?
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yeah, brand new mini high rev starter
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I am not receiving ANY power at all to the car, it's as if the battery is pulled
the battery is showing around 12 volts on the terminals
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Try going through everything again
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Yeah, I'm not a wiring expert either. Somebody will tell you to chase it down back to the ignition switch, check your grounds, etc. I'd check the obvious stuff.
You've a good ground to the driver's side cylinder head? - I know your motor was painted pretty well.
Did you test the starter when it was out of the car? Don't pull it yet but if you get to that point, put it on a piece of cardboard, hold your foot on it and see if it spools up. I've had times when it didn't - bad part. I know others run a screw driver down to the solenoid and jumper across but I don't advise that.
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check the battery cables to make sure they are in place, ground the negative may be the problem.
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i ran back through the wires twice on two different days
the battery cables are good...
i reran a different ground to the battery by touching the frame, a few other places that were showing a good ground
i can't cross the solenoid because it's not getting power......... i turn the key over, and nothing... no lights, no anything at all!
I re checked all the wires, even in the distributor, NOTHING.......
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I never tested the starter because I took it straight from the new box to the engine.....
I have new engine wire harness, and all those connections look good
I have 3 grounds going to the engine
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are the interior lights, headlights, etc. working?
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Sometimes the new starters can have a bad part to.
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nothing is working, no lights, no horn, no radio, the gauges, nothing.......
ALL fuses are still good
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what if i took the starter wire from the battery and connected it to the ign wire on the starter and see if i get power on the inside?
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If its not getting power I dont know about that, try moving your ground on the neg cable. Do you have pictures of everything before you pulled the 403?
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yeah i got pictures, what should i look for?
I have already tried moving around the ground on the neg cable.. nada
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Try putting everything to as close as you can as possible. look for changes you might have made.
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everything is in as close as possible.... identical
positions of wires, positions of where the wires meet...
the ONLY thing different is on the 403 harness there was 2 wires connecting on the starter BUT on the 400 wire harness there is only ONE
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From what you said it sounds like your problem is coming from the battery cables. Are the damaged?
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I think the cables are new if I'm not mistaken.
When you turn on the car, you should hear the blower motor ... and your not near as I can tell. Regardless of the additional wire at the starter, that doesn't address the lack of ANY power inside the car. I think your harness isn't bringing power into the car - more importantly, to the ignition switch.
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That sounds logical, the wiring could have been fried
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How many wires do you have going to the alternator? I know when I redid my motor I had to fixed the hacked up harness. There I fogot to hook up both reds going to the back of the alternator. So, nothing would come on like what you are seeing. Fixed that and it fixed everything.
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There is that connector with two wires + the one to the nut.
You've got the temperature sender wire.
(http://www.78ta.com/gallery2/main.php/d/16458-1/Wiring1.jpg)
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on the alternator, i have the clip with 2 wires going into the side...
then i have the ONE on the nut on back...
on it there is another wire, a green one, that goes out about 2 inches and it has a clip on it , going no where
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no, the heater blower motor is not on
ignition switch, where is that at? i'm drawing a blank
all the wiring is NEW, it's never been turned on, no way that it is fried!
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I think green is temp, or turn signal. also look at that picture jphillips3333 posted
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I thought the wiring might have been used.
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i saw the pic.......
nothing out of the normal, everything is hooked up exactly the way it was before
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The green one is for the temperature sensor ... right? You normally check that by grounding it out, turning the key on and it'll read 260 degrees (full right).
You need a wiring schematic ....
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i've got a schematic, full size and color too! :)
guess i just didn't hook up the temp sending unit wire, but that wouldn't cause it to be a break in the circuit
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Im pretty sure it is Temp.
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i'm still wondering why at the starter terminal i am not reading the correct volts, it's jumping around to like 150 and back down, stuff like that, its the same when i tried to test the positive terminal and i used a ground off of the alternator mount and i had to scratch it to get a good ground,
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I still think its a grounding issue
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yeah, but the only one i can think of is where the starter touches the motor
the paint must be blocking the grounding there
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how can i ground the starter a different way??
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I doubt that, correct me if I'm wrong but you should still be getting power to the interior
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you think?
well the wire from the battery goes to the starter, it doesn't go anywhere else
the ignition wire is on the solenoid which in turn is connected through the wire harness which is connected to the firewall connection......... which goes into the cabin
what am i missing here?
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You've two wires connecting to the solenoid at positive, right?
Then there's a purple wire that goes on the other solenoid terminal that runs into the bulkhead connector.
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See - my schematic shows another red wire at that location that goes into the bulkhead connector - '78 403, right?
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wait.... i see something!
the schematic shows.... on the 400, an additional wire goes from the pos side term on the battery that connected to the wire on the alternater
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Yep - in fact, in the earlier image I posted, that's where that additional red wire goes off the positive terminal - one to the starter, one to the alternator.
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please tell me that the bulkhead on the 403 is hthe same for the 400...
like seriously, why would that be different?
it shows a wire for a fusible link for the 403, which is not on the 400, plus another wire but it says (except 400) but a wire for the 400 is showing that it runs from the battery to a link on the red wire on the alternator, and that green plug on the alternator is for ac
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but my wire harness does not have that extra wire?
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I don't have a wire going from the battery to the alternator, where do I put it? from the terminal to the alternator?
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The wire off the battery is just a battery cable swap ... I don't know about the bulkhead issue. My schematics are B&W and pain to read.
Russ (ta78w72) would usually kick me out of the way by now as I'm stretched real thin in the electrical world. Go over the schematic and chase down wires.
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Russ is missed :-\
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Wow... okay.... I messed up!
I jumped a wire from the alt to the battery, got power, went to start........ wouldn't start.......
then i heard it....... I took off the dist cap to look at the wires...... never put it back on, i tore all the wires off of the ign module so now i have to pull the dist and redo the wiring............. but at least i fixed the no power problem........... Thanks alot everyone...... I feel stupid right now, twice over :)
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Russ - yeah, really.
I don't quite follow the fusible link section of the schematic ... C, D & E look identical in the schematic ... colors and locations connected.
It appears as if the only difference is that the additioanl power for the 400 connects at the alternator whereas the 403 connects addtional power to the starter motor from the bulkhead - I think that achieves the same objective - the difference is how it's switched?
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Haha you bet, whose russ
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Yeah, well, make sure you can rip the terminal off the battery real quick. I am NOT a sparky but can stumble through it ... it's like a visit to the dentist.
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Russ IS Mr. Sparky. He is THE guy I go to for all things wiring. Somebody pissed him off and I've got somebody taking care of that as I type.
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and that engine sounded so sweet, even though it never started ;)
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haha nice to both
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COOL ...
Off to bed dude - good luck.
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I can't believe i didn't put that cap back on!!!!!!!!!! GRRRR!!!!!
Now I have to redo the wiring in the distributor! Can't do it tonight, too late, have to take care of it after work tomorrow
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Let me know how it goes
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Sounds like you got it all squared away Bill.
If not, let me know as I can be up there next weekend to lend a hand. Have a 4 day weekend coming up - no kids or gf to contend with :)
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Cool Brian ... because I can't pop up there. I think it's 1500 miles on I-95 - LOL
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Yeah just don't tell my g/f....I'm supposed to be working on her Durango that weekend.
Hmm....Durango or TA...That's a toughy :)
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Russ IS Mr. Sparky. He is THE guy I go to for all things wiring. Somebody pissed him off and I've got somebody taking care of that as I type.
What pissed him off?
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The whole muscle car, pony car, sports car debate thread ... geez, it's no biggie. Call the TA what you want, it's all good, but at the end of the day it at least has left a mark on automotive history ... unlike those silver/beige imports that are so prevalent you're not even sure of the make/model.
He'll be back ... maybe Pelosi is grilling him on why he hasn't traded his TA in for the $4500 credit. Him and Nancy are tight.
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That would beterrible to do to a T/A
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One problem fixed, another one started.................
All in all, I got the motor started, after having to pull my distributor and turning the rotor 180 degrees, but it's going........ I go to pull the dip stick, it's bent the hell up... So I drop another one down in there, which was a little bit longer, and I turned the engine over, ran it for a few seconds, turned it off, pulled it out, still bent, but noticed it was missing about 1 1/2 inches! They are being broke off by the crank and dropping in the oil pan..............
Someone, PLEASE, tell me I do not have to pull the motor and drop the oil pan and get those out....
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Oh, and btw, the motor sounds great!
Now, I just have to tighten up my transmission lines since they are leaking horribly. Then take off the passenger side valve cover and cut that gasket since it was way too big and bunched up, THEN, re hook up my brake booster, and then I have to time it, right now, it's looking at 30 degrees at 2500, so I'm close, just too damn tired from a week of working on it, gonna do it tomorrow.
Brian, I texted you.... If you wanna come up and help out, sure thing man. I still have tons of stuff needing done. Probably gonna have to tune the carb real good, also need to change my shocks, front and rear, and also I need to change out my door pins.... I have a lot of stuff that I have parts for and put off from doing!
BTW, changing an engine practically by yourself sucks!
Took me an hour to unhook everything and pull out the 403.
Took me 4 hours getting the engine in the motor mounts, tranny, and keep the headers in the right spot...
THEN another 4 hours getting the headers hooked up and bolted up.
I think it took me another 3 hours hooking up random wires, put the carb on, distributor...
Then it took me almost 2 hours to put the alt brackets on, the ps bracket on, get those on enough to run, but they are no way proper yet.
Enough to run, but not right ;)
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Cool - glad it's running. I always vary the RPM when starting it - don't let it lope at idle for 20 minutes ... advice from 25 years back.
Suggestions on the tip;
1st opportunity - tou need to change the oil after breaking it in - perhaps you'll get lucky and the tip of the dipstick will flush out ... 20 to 1 shot. Put some mesh over the oil bucket/pan and see what you get.
2nd option - try an articulating magnet inside the oil pan bolt - maybe it snaps to the piece.
3rd option - you can jack up the front of the motor to pull the pan past the crossmember. You will more than likely have to drop the headers but see how it goes - I seem to recall pulling the pan from under the car and I thought the headers were off.
4th option - run it? Magnetic drain plug holds it on the bottom of the pan?
The motor swap and associated times - yeah, you'll whittle those down when you do it again. ;)
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I just dumped the oil to check everything out..........
I have some, not alot, of very very very tiny speckles, not shavings, but speckles in the oil
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I'm gonna use a magnetic plug tomorrow......
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OK - so you dropped the oil out already. Nothing metallic in feel though, right? Speckles could be gas/oil/lube/RTV mix ...
Yeah - I'd buy the magnetic oil plug. A magnet will draw any metal/filing to it ... that's cheap insurance. The other thing, you're not going to race this thing to 8K RPM so you'd probably be fine. Someone else may suggest you drop the pan - that's fine. It's all good info. I'd probably run it a bit, set the timing, dial in the carb. Drive it a couple hundred miles and change the oil again just for good measure and to see what the magnetic plug gets you. Let us know.
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Yeah, i rubbed it in my fingers and nothing, I couldn't even feel it, just see it sparkle...
I know alot of people will say to drop the pan, to be super safe, but I think it's just fine. I'm gonna change the oil tomorrow, run it for about 5 minutes, change the oil again, while changing the filters
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good job