Hitman's Pontiac Trans Am Forum
Trans Am Information => Trans Am Information => Topic started by: flashno1 on August 31, 2011, 06:43:56 PM
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The argument continues. I have a stock/unmodified 1978 Trans Am with L78 Pontiac 400 CI engine and it came with 6.6 T/A on the shaker. I have Pontiac documentation that refers to the W72 and L78 with only a slash between them and then refers to the L80 Olds Engine separately. We all know that all Trans Ams with Automatics had to come with the Olds Engine sold in California, and it was also the high altitude engine for the T/A. When I come to the Nats, and see 6.6 Liter on the shaker you can bet your life savings that there is an Olds engine under the hood. I think this debate was manufactured by W72 owners who wanted some reverence placed on that engine. Hey, you have chrome valve covers, be happy with that!
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Not totally sure what your asking or saying but I do know that the 6.6 T/A shaker decal callouts were designed for the W72 engine since they were the "High performance engine". The 403 and standard L78 400 got the 6.6 Litre shaker decal callouts. If your's came with them from the factory then maybe it was ordered that way or a mistake. I have the L78 400 and love sportiing the 6.6 Litre decals over the 6.6 T/A decals, but that's just me....
Also the W72 came with the auto or the 4 speed in 77 and 78 (I was informed recently) and only came with the 4 speed in 79.
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I got my 78 off a car lot in 1979, and it had the 6.6liter on it from the Van Nuys factory.( L78 400)
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in 78 only the w72 was to get a shaker decal of TA-6.6, all others were to be blank.
from tran-zam site
For this year the only decal applied to the hood scoop was the TA-6.6 decal. The 6.6 LITRE call out was dropped. This means that unless you ordered a W72 equipped Trans Am in 1978 your hood scoop came blank.
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See this page: http://www.78ta.com/66liter.php
And see this image:
(http://www.78ta.com/images/66literb.JPG)
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I like the fact that this topic continues, as it demonstrates that the issue is not completely, and never may be solved, to everyone's satisfaction. Here's what I've come across: When it comes to things like decals and front Pontiac emblems, etc., MOST vehicles got was was the "correct" item as per the model and year standards. SOME vehicles got odd mixes straight from the factory because of a variety of reasons (ran out of correct item -- they won't stop the production line for 3 inch sail birds on non-SEs, or, they made a mistake, it happened, etc.), and SOME others got non-correct items because either the dealer or the customer waned them that way. I have a non-SE WS6 1979 Solar Gold T/A with six inch sail birds. Everyone knows that they should be the 3 inch birds. But I am the second owner and the previous owner said they wanted the larger bird because they looked cooler. Ditto for the gold Ponitac emblem up front. So, I am having it repainted, and went with what was on the car when I bought it, not what the "correct" item is. I have the build sheet and I don't see anywhere where it designates what size sail birds were installed or the color of the emblem.
One other thing I found out in my discussions with the old dealer who sold the car and an issue that has been argued here too. And that is the Hurst Dual Gate shifter. Although this was "not" a factory installed option as has been point out here, it WAS a dealer installed option. Dealers in 1979 got a Performace Hurst deal directly from Hurst to sell their shifters on the 1979 403 Olds engines. The dealer installed shifter had a custom Trans Am shifter plate, and the after market ones did not.
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Really not that unusual for a dealer to install whatever (to a reasonable extent) a customer wants...which naturally makes them dealer-installed items, not factory. The information that has been provided so far is in regards to factory designations.
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I got it. That makes sense. But sometimes even the factory installed non-correct items on cars due to shortages, mistakes, etc. They were building 140,000 or so of these vehicles in 1979. They wouldn't stop production lines because they ran out of Gold 3 inch sail birds, or Red Pontiac emblems. And this might also explain why some Olds engines had T/A 6.6. Just saying.
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Good drugs back in the 70's too.
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I agree with the idea that "things" happen on the assembly line, and yes, I have worked a Pontiac assembly line and I had seen some of those things happen. Anybody care if you got a car delivered with 2 differnt colored fenders or wheels?! LOL And they certainly weren't going to stop a line for decals that could be installed later. Dealers wanted to sell cars, and if it was possible they would make changes the customer desired. There were also changes made during the model run. For Example, someone in high management could just wonder why are we spending money buying 2 different decals and just drop one on a suggestion to lower management. It's only pennies per car, but when you make 10s of thousands of them per year, it adds up to dollars pretty quickly. We must remember that there were 2 assembly plants that made the same models which means that we had 2 different Plant Managers which means we had 2 different philosophies of doing things. We could have the Van Nuys plant putting TA 6.6 on W78s and 6.6 litre on L80s and nothing on the L78a and Norwood putting TA 6.6 on W72s and L78s and 6,6 litre on L80s. I have read documentation that the Pontiac Engine which is the L78 originally and later another engine was developed, which was later identifiled as a W72 were both identified as a L78 engine by Pontiac Motor Division. They are both Pontiac built engines and we were proud of both. My build sheet lists the engine as L78 V-8 400 4-BBL. The shaker is identified as WX3 R/A Shaker HD. There is no designation of liters on the build sheet. The build sheet is the map that they follow to build the car. So that means it was an added as a task somewhere else. We may never know who was responsible for the decals. I guess this TA/Litre thing will never be resolved.
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I agree with the idea that "things" happen on the assembly line, and yes, I have worked a Pontiac assembly line and I had seen some of those things happen. Anybody care if you got a car delivered with 2 differnt colored fenders or wheels?! LOL And they certainly weren't going to stop a line for decals that could be installed later. Dealers wanted to sell cars, and if it was possible they would make changes the customer desired. There were also changes made during the model run. For Example, someone in high management could just wonder why are we spending money buying 2 different decals and just drop one on a suggestion to lower management. It's only pennies per car, but when you make 10s of thousands of them per year, it adds up to dollars pretty quickly. We must remember that there were 2 assembly plants that made the same models which means that we had 2 different Plant Managers which means we had 2 different philosophies of doing things. We could have the Van Nuys plant putting TA 6.6 on W78s and 6.6 litre on L80s and nothing on the L78a and Norwood putting TA 6.6 on W72s and L78s and 6,6 litre on L80s. I have read documentation that the Pontiac Engine which is the L78 originally and later another engine was developed, which was later identifiled as a W72 were both identified as a L78 engine by Pontiac Motor Division. They are both Pontiac built engines and we were proud of both. My build sheet lists the engine as L78 V-8 400 4-BBL. The shaker is identified as WX3 R/A Shaker HD. There is no designation of liters on the build sheet. The build sheet is the map that they follow to build the car. So that means it was an added as a task somewhere else. We may never know who was responsible for the decals. I guess this TA/Litre thing will never be resolved.
I have to disagree here a little I guess. You make it sound like the plant managers could do what they want and at somepoint during 1978, they just decided to throw T/A 6.6 on all the shakers. I agree that "Things Happen" but I think those "things" were few and far between. As far as no "liters" anywhere on the build sheet... no build sheet had "liters" anywhere on it, not even the Olds 403 cars. Yes, there were two different Pontiac engines used in the cars, the L78 and the W72. But the W72 was an upgrade to the L78 so both show on the build sheet. So they were both L78 engines, but the W72 was an upgrade. So I am not sure what you are saying about the W72 or your shaker designation. Also, on the build sheet it shows "2FS" for Firebird and then also "WS4" for Trans Am, because the Trans Am was an upgrade to the Firebird.
I mean at the begining of this post you say you have a "stock/unmodified 1978 Trans Am"....... how do you know it has been unmodified? I think this topic has be resolved, but yes, there are som "oddities" out there that no one can explain, but I think for the most part this one has been resolved.
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Thanks Flashn01. Actually, I think that helps a lot. I think there is room for both philosophies. There is the one philosohpy that wants a car to be the way the "regs" call for them in the book, and there is another philosohpy that wants the car either the way the buyer picked it up at the dealer, or the way they like it as long as it was an option that might have come from the factory. I belong to the latter group. My car was a one car owner before I got it. I want my car the way it was when it was sold, as it's personality began there. So I have left in the Dual Gate shifter, the six inch sail birds, and the gold Pontiac emplem, because that is the way the customer got it at delivery. To me, chaning it back to the way the standards say will be changing it back to a car that never existed. Related to this, I think judging at shows should take this into account when considering what is the "right" decal or emblem. While there is only one "right" book answer, we all know that cars rolled off the assembly line with items not consistent with the regs. That doesn't make them "wrong" in my book. It makes them more "rare" and unique.
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If I may add, for the 1978 model year T/A 6.6 decals were used on Trans Ams with the W72 Performance Package, whereas, the base L78 400's and L80 403 Trans Am had blank shakers, meaning no decals. Factory documntation shows no part number for a 6.6 LITRE decal for the 1978 model year. With that said, mistakes did happen and the T/A 6.6 shaker decals could have been added to either base L78 and/or L80 cars. This however would be a very rare occurrence. Stories about factory line mistakes have a tendency to get blown out of proportion, meaning many more mistakes are perceived to have happen than actually happened. If I may coin a phrase from the movie "Stripes"..."it's the stories they tell"
As far as how the W72 engine was recorded on factory documents and build sheets, I have researched this too.
Pontiac Car Distribution Bulletin 77- F-1, June 25, 1976 introduced a new 400-cid engine called T/A 6.6 and available on Trans Am and Formula at extra cost. The new engine was originally to carry UPC code LS7, but for reasons unknown around August 5, 1976 just before the release, code LS7 was changed to code W72. All of the original Pontiac build bulletins and memos identify the T/A 6.6 engine as W72 or T/A 400 in 1977-78 and L78 or T/A 400 in 1979. The T/A 6.6 engine carried UPC code W72 and identified as T/A 6.6 Litre on the 1977-78 Firebird dealer order forms and was available only on Firebird Trans Am and Formula models, except for the 1977 Can Am. All Pontiac bulletins and memos for the 1979 model year list the T/A 6.6 engine in the dealer order guide under UPC code L78.
All 1977-79 Firebirds produced with the T/A 6.6 engine option list UPC code W72 PERF PACKAGE (NORWOOD, OH) or W72 PERFORM PKG (VAN NUYS, CA) on the factory build sheet.
As far as reverence, between 1977 and 1979, the W72 was.... "King of the Hill"
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As far as reverence, between 1977 and 1979, the W72 was.... "King of the Hill"
well said john, good info
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Well, John sure told us all off! He may be technically right, but as I said many times before, things happen. I have seen it again and again and again. I worked for GM 42 years and the first 23 years for Pontiac Motor Division. Plant Managers have tremendous power, and they actually run the production business. What they say goes! I have seen many things that I can't discuss in this forum. Badging on the shaker can happen, right or wrong according to the experts that pay attention to the technical end. The L78, W72, and L80 are all TA engines. The L78 and the L80 were 'standard engines' and the W72 was an option. The TA 6.6 would be correct on any combination, technically. I don't factually know if the first owner of my L78 TA slapped those decals on the shaker or the dealer or was delivered that way. All I know is that there are many owners of L78 Trans Ams that have that designation on their shaker and they didn't add it. John says there was no part number for the decal, so I guess they couldn't have ordered it. That would make the likely culprit the assembly plant, right or wrong it is there. I prefer to believe that they were all TA 6.6s.
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I quoted John wrong, he said there was no part number for the 6.6 liter decal, not the TA 6.6 decal which I assume could be ordered. The reason I said that it had be added by the first owner of my TA or by the dealer or by the factory, is that it shows as much wear as the original gold chicken on the hood. I don't know how Norwood or Van Nuys handled their decals. But I know how PMD assembly in Pontiac handled it. The last thing installed on the car was the decals. The car was transferred from Plant 8, the assembly plant to Plant 16, the finishing plant to have the decals installed. It made me sick one day when I saw them dump a load of Trans Am decals in the dumpster when they were cleaning out Plant 12, the maintenance/repair plant. Things happen, guys.
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I bought my Y88 in November of 1979, it has the L-78 motor, and had the 6.6 liter decal, I have 2 pics of the car when I got it but the angle of the shot, you can't see the shaker. when did that decal come out, 1979? There was nothing in the trunk, (spare, jack, inflator) so I find it hard to believe they stuck a decal on it to sell, when there was stuff missing, You know these dealers, they don't spend a dime until you make them, I remember the 8 track had to be fixed too. Thats one reason I dont do those types of shows anymore, some guy set up in some parking lot and thinks he's at Pebble Beach telling me my car is not correct. ::)
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Back in July of 1978 I bought a new Martinique blue 78 T/A with t-tops that had just arrived at the dealership. I did not know anything at the time about there being two different Pontiac engines. My T/A did not have any decals on the shaker and the engine had blue painted valve covers. About the same time, another guy in town bought a new Martinique blue 78 T/A with t-tops and his shaker had the T/A 6.6 decals. I never saw under his hood but I do know his T/A had more power than mine. Several years later I discovered there were two Pontiac engines and my T/A had the L78 and his had the W72.
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I would be interested Dblhh, where was your bird assembled back in 1978? And was there a Firebird Decal on your hood? Many owners of original TA L78's report that they had the TA 6.6 on their shaker when they bought the car. My thought is that one plant may have put those decals on both L78s and W78s. The build sheet has no info about decals on the shaker, but the hood emblem and SE codes are listed on the build sheet. The shaker code is WX3 for all Trans Ams, and the FB HOOD EMBLEM is build code WW7 and the SE codes are Y88, Y84, and Y82. Actually W72 was listed as an Performance Package not an engine code. L78 was the engine code for all Pontiac 400 cubic inch engines. L80 for the 403 Olds engine. It makes sense to me that the shaker was not shipped with the engines from Plant 9 in Pontiac, MI. I never saw any 400s shipped that way. Besides how did we know at Pontiac what color car they would be installed in. The assembly plant had to keep track and figure that out. They used the build sheet to assemble the car, but no info that I can see would help out the poor line worker that installed the decal on the shaker. From my many years working the factory floor, there were large turnovers of workers on the final assembly line. I worked the assembly line for a day and did a fine job until my hand got banged hard on an engine head, and after that I didn't do so good on that line. I hope they caught all my mistakes until I could be relieved to go to first aid. This little scenario has played out many times over the years by many workers. Was the TA 6.6 shaker decal simply a assembly line worker mistake or a corporate intention? I think both would be valid to the final owner in determining originality.
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My intention was never to tell anyone off. I was simply stating the correct application for shaker decals. I am sure there were new 1974 Trans Am with the 400 cid engine get SD-455 decals in place of the 400 decal and vice-versa.
But you do bring up a very interesting point. With all of these assembly line mistakes and the apparent poor quality control standards, it is no wonder that that foreign cars have dominated sales in many US markets. And that two of the big three nearly went broke.
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There were inspectors, John, but they had a huge job. If you made a mistake, you were suppose to alert someone or just mark it in a way that it could be seen. I was just filling in when I made those mistakes on the line. I was a newbie and I hadn't got familar enough with the job to make it routine like most assembly line veterans do. Still people didn't always show up for work, and the line must run, so they have to break in someone new. It was a constant task. The UAW and GM made some big strides in later contracts to make it hard on the individual if he or she didn't show up for work. My Trans Am is stock original, and the body parts fit very well. Not 2000 standards, but very good for that era. I'm very happy with it. If you gave me a choice of a 2012 Lexus with all the bells and whistles or a 2nd Gen Trans Am, what would I chose?? I would chose the Lexus....AND then sell it and buy 5 Trans Ams!!
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My '78 WS6 PHS documented TA from Van Nuys, had all decals EXCEPT the TA/6.6 decal on the shaker (blank shaker). I'm 2nd owner, bought it with 20k mi. in 1984. It also didn't come with the space saver inflator bottle, but did have the space saver tire. Go figure, eh.
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I will stick to one Trans Am. My parents ordered mine new Dec 1976 and they took delivery March 1977. It has 11,382 miles from new and is unrestored. I am the Pebble Beech guy in the parking lot.
Oh, almost forgot, it is a W72 car.
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I will stick to one Trans Am. My parents ordered mine new Dec 1976 and they took delivery March 1977. It has 11,382 miles from new and is unrestored. I am the Pebble Beech guy in the parking lot.
Oh, almost forgot, it is a W72 car.
Did you Tech the Mi Indian summer show?
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No, but I am a POCI Tech Advisor and Historian for the 1977-79 W72 Performance Package
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The so called Tech I'm refering to was doing the show in a Mall parking lot, Bob Sellers Indian summer.He knew all Pontiacs. ::) I don't recall ever meeting you, or I never had my TA at the natl's, I'm just saying I drove a 78 off a pontiac lot w/ the 6.6liter on the shaker.
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I think the main point of this is that in 1978 if you got the Pontiac 400 with the W72 Performance Package, then you got "T/A 6.6" on the shaker. If in 1978 you got the L78 Pontiac 400 without the W72 Performance Package or the L80 Olds 403 engine, then you got no shaker decals. (and this only applies to non-Special Edition cars) The code that is listed above for the shaker of WX3 is the shaker itself and does not have anything to do with the shaker decals as was stated above. So having "T/A 6.6" installed on the shaker was something that was a mistake and not a common thing that happened. Some people say that there car came with those shaker decals installed and probably it was because they either had the W72 Package or they had a Special Edition or they were mistaken in their memory (which happens alot) or it was a mistake by the Factory. No, you could not order special shaker decals nor order 6" sail panel birds from the dealer and have them installed by the Factory. There was not a box on the Delaer order forms that designated anything like that. So if the car came with those it was a mistake or the Dealer themselves put them on. If it was a mistake from the Factory it still does not make it "Factory Correct". If it was instaleld by the Dealer, it still does not make it "Factory Correct". That is another argument that happens alot about original owners of cars buying a car from a Dealer with something installed on it that was not Factory like Alarm systems, or different rims, or even shaker decals. Just because the car was purchased brand new with those items on the car does not make it a "Factory Correct" car nor a "Stock" car. Now I am not a "Pureist" and don't care what people have on their car or do to their car as you can tell by my own car. I am just stating the arguments for those people who talk about being "Factory Correct" or "Stock" and who pose those arguments. So having a 1978 with the "T/A 6.6" on your shaker without having the W72 Performance Package is a "mistake" or was added by someone else.
I read back over this and I don't think I am getting my point accross that well. I am just trying to say what would be factory correct on a car and that mistakes did happen, but the mistakes were not as common as poeple would like to think. So I don't care what is on the shaker or what people do to their cars, I am just trying to state what would be "Factory Correct".
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I don't think anyone misunderstands the argument you present about what the regs say constitutes "factory correct". I just think people take issue with the notion that "factory correct" constitutes "original". I think the alternative point that is being made is that "factory correct" holds little meaning on cars that were not well quality controlled and were delivered to the customers differently. You say that the mistakes were rare, yet there are no statistics to prove that, or conversely to prove that they were greater than "rare". What we know for a fact is that mistakes were made. Cars were delivered from factory with different emblems and decals. And you can prove this by people's accounts who state what they got on delivery. Seems to me that the burden of proof is on those that believe mistakes did not happen, that every car was delivered "factory correct" and thuis the only way to have an "original" version of the car is to have it match the "factory correct" standard. That's the leap of faith that some people refuse to take because what is listed as "factory correct" is not the car they got when they drove off the dealer's lot. Other examples, by the way, would be side moldings, and other items that the dealers installed -- not the factory. It hardly makes sense to call a car that has side modling installed by the dealer as not being "factory correct" because the factory itself didn't install it. So, what we're left with is a situation where there will be disagreement over what people define as "original". Some people will fall back on the "factory correct" definition, and some will fall back on the "dealer delivered" definition. I don't think anyone on this forum is qualified to say one way or the other, which is more "correct" as it is a totally subjective value and cannot be objectively proven ot disproven. As I said very early on in this thread, I believe there is room for both views and neither should consider the alternative as "wrong" or "incorrect".
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Brett, you have explained it very well.
With over 278,000 Trans Ams produced between 1977 and 1979, there were bound to be some assembly line mistakes. No one is perfect. But the point that Brett has made as well as I is what is termed as "factory correct". Mistakes do not make a these cars rare.
Today, a lot of people who own 1977-79 Trans Ams were either too young to remember or not born when they were new. Even more true are the vast number of these cars being restored incorrectly and being past off as a correct restoration. Many people in the hobby think they are correct and are willing to spend big money. It just doesn't make sense to me.
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Can someone post a scan of the actual "factory correct" standard for the sail birds and the front end Pontiac emblems. I am having my 1979 T/A repainted at the end of the Car Show season, as the original factory paint is finally starting to cost me at the shows. When I get it repainted, I am considering changing the sail birds to the 3 inch birds and the front end emblem to the red emblem. But I'd like to see the factory correct standard in writing before I do that, as the original owner has told me that he took delivery of the vehicle from the factory Christmas 1978 as it is today. As I am the second owner, either he's lying to me or it indeed came from the factory that way. In either case, I'd like to see the factory standard for non-SE sail birds and front end emblems for myself. Also, I am trying to find the sticker for the jacking arm. This sticker shows a picture of front and rear end and the location of the slots where the jacking arm fits. Neither Ames not Classic sells them. I've included picture of my current sail birds and front end emblems. P.S., I was born during the Johnson Administration, so I clearly am old enough to remember these cars. In fact, this is my fourth F-body, and I've done just about everything on them except a complete engine and itransmission rebuild (I paid someone for that). Thanks.
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and thuis the only way to have an "original" version of the car is to have it match the "factory correct" standard.
bingo
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I don't consider the decals on my shaker a " factory mistake". And I run into that all the time , I was driving my TA when the hot shot telling me things was in 4th or 5th grade then. I still learn alot about the hobby every day, but what I know, because I was there I'll tell you.
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I think that you make a very good point SgtRock. A purist might say in a perfect world that mistakes at the factory do not make it factory original. Realists might say, hey it came from the factory that way so that makes it factory original. I tend to lean toward the latter thinking, it is not a perfect world out there, it gets messy sometimes and that's OK. In the coin and stamp collector world, mistakes at the mint make it more valuable. The mistakes that we are discussing do not affect the drivability or appearance. Maybe someone at Pontiac wanted to designate the W72 Performance Package further by adding that shaker decal, I think that is the why some say the TA 6.6 decal is incorrect on the Standard L78, but what if you ordered your T/A with the performance option, but deleted the Hood emblem would you still get the shaker decal? On my T/A that was an option via the build sheet. I was assuming that is why I got the shaker decal, too because it was ordered with the Hood Emblem. Anybody ever see a T/A optioned that way?
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I think i am correct in saying that bird, or bird delete, did not matter. shaker designation was there either way. Hey, if i am wrong that's okay though, you guys will not be mad at me, right? There could have been a few that slipped through without shaker decals by mistake, but they still should have been there, but may have come from the factory without them.
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and thuis the only way to have an "original" version of the car is to have it match the "factory correct" standard.
bingo
So just so I understand your position, if a car had dealer installed side moldings that were NOT installed by the factory, this would no longer be considered a "factory correct" car?
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When would the 79 decals become avail? could you get 79 decals in 78, I doubt it.
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78 y88 had the 5 color decals.....
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All 1978 Solar Gold cars had the 5-shade decals, not just the Y88's. No other 1978 models got the 5-shade decals.
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Dead horse: consider yourself beaten ;)
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Dead horse: consider yourself beaten ;)
Just for fun can we beat some more? I love it when you beat a good hunk of meat part its prime....... Haha
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LOL!
(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x466/rogerbb/sFi_flamethrower.gif)
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Thats one reason I dont do those types of shows anymore, some guy set up in some parking lot and thinks he's at Pebble Beach telling me my car is not correct. ::)
In the end, this is what it's all about. When people stop going to shows because some know-it-all says something is incorrect is an indication that the hobby is in danger of being taken over by elitists and is being hurt by such sanctimonious attitudes. No one here is an authority enough to say one way or the other what constitutes "correct" on items not documented on things like a build sheet in such a way as to completely discount evidence to the contrary. There is ample factual evidence on both sides and there are real life examples like Bird Turd here who can affirm their car was a certain way when it was delivered. My only argument has ever been that someone should not be telling someone else their car is not "factory correct" when there is so much evidence to the contrary and that the factory standards were not always followed. It would be better to stick to the big items like engine sizes, transmissions, interior builds etc. (things documented on the build sheet), and leave the small things like decals, emblems, and shaker hood decals (things not documented on the build sheet) alone. Prudent leeway should be granted here based on the knowledge that "factory correct" is a near useless term when there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that the factory didn't always follow it. By letting this cancer eat away at the hobby is only going to drive more people away from sharing their cars. I like that the T/A Nationals actually allows cars to be considered "stock" that have a whole host of changes and things added by others that were not added by the factory -- like open hood scoops, stereos, exhaust (not headers), shifters, etc. This was smart on their part. We should be encouraging more people to participate in shows regardless of the small items like shaker hood decals instead of turning people away with elitist attitudes.
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am a purist. What bothers me might not bother someone else. Example, when my
Thats one reason I dont do those types of shows anymore, some guy set up in some parking lot and thinks he's at Pebble Beach telling me my car is not correct. ::)
In the end, this is what it's all about. When people stop going to shows because some know-it-all says something is incorrect is an indication that the hobby is in danger of being taken over by elitists and is being hurt by such sanctimonious attitudes. No one here is an authority enough to say one way or the other what constitutes "correct" on items not documented on things like a build sheet in such a way as to completely discount evidence to the contrary. There is ample factual evidence on both sides and there are real life examples like Bird Turd here who can affirm their car was a certain way when it was delivered. My only argument has ever been that someone should not be telling someone else their car is not "factory correct" when there is so much evidence to the contrary and that the factory standards were not always followed. It would be better to stick to the big items like engine sizes, transmissions, interior builds etc. (things documented on the build sheet), and leave the small things like decals, emblems, and shaker hood decals (things not documented on the build sheet) alone. Prudent leeway should be granted here based on the knowledge that "factory correct" is a near useless term when there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that the factory didn't always follow it. By letting this cancer eat away at the hobby is only going to drive more people away from sharing their cars. I like that the T/A Nationals actually allows cars to be considered "stock" that have a whole host of changes and things added by others that were not added by the factory -- like open hood scoops, stereos, exhaust (not headers), shifters, etc. This was smart on their part. We should be encouraging more people to participate in shows regardless of the small items like shaker hood decals instead of turning people away with elitist attitudes.
I agree with you. I am not going to put down someone or their car, just because i am a purist. What bothers me might not bother someone else. Example, when my car was repainted they installed the T/A 6.6 shaker decals on my 403 car. For a few years I let it go, saying to myself that it really did not matter, no one cares, plenty of them out there that are done the same way. Some people even claim a few may have come that way. Well i could not stand it, so i put the correct ones on about 5 years after the fact. Most people would just let something like that go. But, who am i to argue with someone when they say their car came with this or with that. It may have, i am just glad other people are interested in the same hobby i am. Factory or dealer added, it is something that was on the car new. Just here to have a good time.
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am a purist. What bothers me might not bother someone else.
That's what I am struggling with right now. I am finally going to have my Solar Gold '79 repainted this winter at the end of the Car Show season. I already bought the decal kit from FBodyWarehouse and I ordered both the 3 inch sail birds and the 6 inch sail birds. I am struggling with which way to go. I like the looks of the 6 inch bird and the original owner told me they were on it when he bought it. But I also show the car a lot and want to go to Nationals, probably next year if I can take a break from the war. That part of me tells me I need to have it the way Pontiac intended it to be, regardless of the way it drove off the lot. So I am conflicted. If I've gone to all the trouble to bring the car back to its original state by fixing this and that, seems like I shouldn't stop mid-stream. So, I dunno....I guess if I could see a scan of the actual Pontiac requirements for the sail birds (like the one Hitman posted for the shaker decal) that would help me decide. If I woulda known then what I know now about the decals I probably would not have bought the car as I would have suspected the owner had lied. And that would have been a shame because it really is a fantasic, low mileage, wharehouse kept WS6 car with really low miles, not a spec of rust anywhere, and really, really clean. I didn't even know it was an WS6 until I got the build sheet from the rear seat and the PHS docs after I took delivery. I'm glad i got it.
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I would be interested Dblhh, where was your bird assembled back in 1978? And was there a Firebird Decal on your hood? ...
Sorry it took me a while to answer you back.
I think my T/A was built in the Norwood, Ohio plant, but I'm not for certain and I sold that car back in the fall of 1980. I thought I still have the original window sticker somewhere around here, but have not been able to find it yet. I also don't have the VIN number, so I can't get any info from PHS.
My T/A did have the hood bird, if that is the firebird decal you are referring to.
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I haven't really seen any "elitist" type attitudes/posts in this thread...I've seen questions asked...questions answered...and the answers questioned.
There are many knowledgeable people here...take the info you find here and do with it as you choose...just my opinion ;)
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I don't claim to be an authority on the subject, but I did own several Trans ams between 77-79 and they were all either brand new or slightly used. Back then the 6.6 Ltr decal was what you saw if the car had the lower performance Pontiac 400 or the Olds 403. The higher output Pontiac 400 always had the T/A 6.6 decal. The cars I remember not having any decals on the shaker were those with the chevy engine, and there were a few. I am a big fan of Pontiacs, always have been, can't tell you how many Pontiacs I've owned through the years, way too many to list, and I do believe that in todays market a 77-79 Trans am with the Pontiac 400 especially the ones with the 4 speed manual tend to be worth more. A 79 400 4 speed should be at the peak of the value charts as those fall in the low production catagory, plus they were produced late in the 79 model year. With all that said, and I probably won't make many friends here by saying this, but in my opinion the better engine was the Olds 403. Yes, it was rated with lower hp than the W72, but G.M also rated that power with less timing, as the 403 was produced by Olds rather than Pontiac, which obviously created a conflict. When the timing on the Olds engine was set at it's optimum, the Olds actually made more power. The Olds 403 also didn't suffer from bearing issues as did the Pontiacs. BTW, my latest project was selected specifically because it had a Pontiac engine.
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In the end, this is what it's all about. When people stop going to shows because some know-it-all says something is incorrect is an indication that the hobby is in danger of being taken over by elitists and is being hurt by such sanctimonious attitudes. No one here is an authority enough to say one way or the other what constitutes "correct" on items not documented on things like a build sheet in such a way as to completely discount evidence to the contrary.
First off I want to say one thing.... I never call myself an "expert" nor "authority" and never refer to myself as such. Whenever people call me an "expert", I correct them and say that I am just a "specialist". With that being said, yes, no one here is really an "authority" when it comes to these cars, we just do the best that we can do with the information we are provided with and what we can find and prove documentation wise. They only thing we can determine of what is "correct" is from what we see documentation wise. And we have the proof in documents from 1978 or any year that we are talking about. That is the "proof" that we can show.
There is ample factual evidence on both sides and there are real life examples like Bird Turd here who can affirm their car was a certain way when it was delivered. My only argument has ever been that someone should not be telling someone else their car is not "factory correct" when there is so much evidence to the contrary and that the factory standards were not always followed.
To me there is not "ample factual evidence" at all. To me someone's memory is not "factual evidence". I mean we are talking about memories that are 33 years old (referring to the 1978). Memories can be changed, forgotten, mistaken, and tricked relatively easily and has been proven so in scientific studies and experiments to show how easily the mind can be mistaken. Now, I am not going to make reference to them in the books and articles I have read (unless someone requests it) but it is to make a point. The point is that someone's memory to me does no constitute in any way shape or form "factual evidence". And even with that, to me there is also not "ample" evidence either. What we have is a few isolated incidents of things being different from what the factory documentation that we have. To me factual evidence would be maybe a memo from the plant managers to their line employees stating to install a certain shaker decal, or to install something other that what the factory deemed was to be on these cars. So to me a memo like that would be "factual" evidence of what some are saying. But we don't have any proof like that to show that it was the case. Another form of "factual" evidence would be photos from 1978 of the assembly line with cars with these "mistakes" on them. So a photo from the factory would to me be factual evidence. A photo of a car from the Dealer would not be because we know Dealers installed what was requested by the customer and even installed things that were not even availlable for the whole "F" body line (like car alarm systems which you can ask LOMILETA about). Another thing that would be considered proof would be someone's dealer order form that they could even order a certain thing on thier car. So something in writing from 1978 showing any of this to me would be factual. Another thing that maybe could be traced was if these "isolated incidents" could be traced back to a certain point. So these people that say they had something installed from the factory that way and the cars could all be traced back to a certain build date (or dates within a close period of time) at a certain factory could be the start of factual evidence. But we do not have that either. Again, the side of the argument we can take is proven by factory documents and memos. The other side of the argument is only proven by people's memories.
It would be better to stick to the big items like engine sizes, transmissions, interior builds etc. (things documented on the build sheet), and leave the small things like decals, emblems, and shaker hood decals (things not documented on the build sheet) alone.
Ok, some of these things can be traced back and proven or not proven (possibly). For example, in 1979, the 3" sail panel bird had a part number of 10006138, the 6" sail panel bird had a part number of 100002976. Now, although part numbers are not listed on the build sheet they did have different prices. The 3" bird was $14.55 and the 6" bird was $20.05. So there could possibly be proof there on a dealer invoice if you compared two different sail panel birds and see a price difference on two different cars. And who knows, maybe there is a way to tell on the build sheet, but we are not authorities enough on them to determine the codes. Either way, we can again only go by the documentation that we have and can prove.
Prudent leeway should be granted here based on the knowledge that "factory correct" is a near useless term when there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that the factory didn't always follow it.
Factory Correct is not a useless term because we have Factory Documents that show what Pontiac and GM said was what the Factory was to build. So I do not think that term is useless at all because again I do there is NOT "plenty of anecdotal evidence" to show otherwise. We have isolated incidents with no documentation to show what was installed and just rely on people's memories. Now, we can go back and have people find their photos of their cars when they were new from 1978 and I would be willing to bet that if we got 100 photos that 95 of them would show what is shown in factory documentation and maybe only 5 photos to show something different. And out of those 5 photos, there is no proof that the Dealer did not do it and not the factory. So again, to me that is not "plenty of anecdotal evidence" nor "ample factual evidence". Again, there is a difference between what the "Factory" did and what "Dealers" did to these cars back when they were new.
By letting this cancer eat away at the hobby is only going to drive more people away from sharing their cars. I like that the T/A Nationals actually allows cars to be considered "stock" that have a whole host of changes and things added by others that were not added by the factory -- like open hood scoops, stereos, exhaust (not headers), shifters, etc. This was smart on their part. We should be encouraging more people to participate in shows regardless of the small items like shaker hood decals instead of turning people away with elitist attitudes.
I do not think there is a cancer at all. The only cancer lies on those people which care nothing about the car and only care about winning trophies. And to me that is still a small number of people out there. I said in an earlier post that I don't think I was getting my point across clear enough and I still don't think I am. I could probably still type for hours regarding this issue of "Factory" correct and not "Factory" correct, but now my fingers hurt from typing. I am not an authority nor an expert... I am just a specialist and only go by what I can prove and not my memory. I have worked on/owned/bought and sold over 100 Trans Ams so I have a good base, but still am not an expert.
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Since this is still going on I will put one more post on this, I'm not going on memory, the shaker decals came up at Trade school, in 79 I bumped into another 78 y88 and it had the TA6.6 decals. We talked out side of school about it, since I was new to the car, and hobby at that point, and didn't know about the engines, and tag teaming me isn't going to change my memory about this either.
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Since this is still going on I will put one more post on this, I'm not going on memory, the shaker decals came up at Trade school, in 79 I bumped into another 78 y88 and it had the TA6.6 decals. We talked out side of school about it, since I was new to the car, and hobby at that point, and didn't know about the engines, and tag teaming me isn't going to change my memory about this either.
No one is "tag teaming" anyone. You say you are not going by memory, but yet you state that this came up back in 1979.... so if it happened in 1979, how can it not be from memory? Even if it happened yesterday... it is still from your "memory" from yesterday isn't it? I am not trying to change anyone's memory, I am just saying memories can be mistaken, especially when they are 30+years old.
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Thank you Hitman. Good job! Very well said. Sorry you had to write a book! ;D Thanks 78455, i have always loved the 403 and agree with what you said. The 403 always gets put down for some reason, i guess because it's not a Poncho engine. I've had them both and have always had less problems with the 403, but guys i love them both, so don't send any hate posts. I just prefer the 403.
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Since this is still going on I will put one more post on this, I'm not going on memory, the shaker decals came up at Trade school, in 79 I bumped into another 78 y88 and it had the TA6.6 decals. We talked out side of school about it, since I was new to the car, and hobby at that point, and didn't know about the engines, and tag teaming me isn't going to change my memory about this either.
No one is "tag teaming" anyone. You say you are not going by memory, but yet you state that this came up back in 1979.... so if it happened in 1979, how can it not be from memory? Even if it happened yesterday... it is still from your "memory" from yesterday isn't it? I am not trying to change anyone's memory, I am just saying memories can be mistaken, especially when they are 30+years old.
My earlier comments were not aimed at this board, but at those people at car shows that spend their time riding down other contestants because they have the "wrong" shaker decal on. I have no doubt that the people on this board would never, and have never engaged in such behavior. Regardless, despite repeated requests, I still have not seen any documentation on this or any other site that states what size sail bird went on which models, or anything about the color of the front end emblems (red or gold). All I have seen is comments from people who have said thay have seen such documents. Could you please scan and post these documents sometime? I have seen the shaker one you posted before. That was very helpful. One last item, in the absence of factual written documents stating such, eye witness accounts do provide factual evidence, as they are excepted in a court of law all the time. Although people have false memories, they still constitute facts absent any contrary evidence. All a document will tel you is what the regulation was supposed to be. It doesn't tell you what factory workers or plant managers actually did in practice. And there has been some testimony here, and across the web, and at other venues about the production practices in the 1970s. Even if there was a 5 percent mistake rate in the 100 photos you received as in your example above, that still represents over 1400 vehicles in 1979 alone that mighta had different sail panel birds -- that's not a statistically insignificant number.
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I have a busy few days but I will search through the documents I have to see what I can find on the sail panel birds and the front nose emblems. Give me a few days to get past Saturday and then I will search.
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Thanks man, that would be great!
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I am somewhat offended as my comments are being pased off as some know-it-all. Well this know-it-all has been researching the 1977-79 W72 Performance Package for the better part of the last two decades. I have spent countless hours and resourses researching and obtaining factory documents about the W72 engine option. My documentation includes internal memos, bulletins and real engine engineering documents that were probably used at Plant 9 engine plant. In fact some of my engine engineering documents use to be Mike Hicks, Pontiac Engineering. When I share information about this engine package it is not based on memory but actual factory documents on how they were built.
I have brought forth information that was never known about the W72 Performance Package to the hobby outside of the factory. How many people knew that very early 1977 W72 engines, 2,136 to be exact (1,806 WA code & 330 Y6 code) engines were built with non-baffled oil pans. The change over to baffled oil pans began with engine unit number 131040 produced on 10-20-76. Or that all W72 engines built prior to 9-28-76 had the base L78 40 psi oil pump, solid cap main dowels and non-baffled oil pan instead of the W72 60 psi pump, spring pin main dowel caps and baffled oil pan. These are factory mistake documented by Pontiac Engineering.
I was also the first to desipher 1977-79 W72 Firebird Formula production numbers, and accurate 1978 W72 production numbers.
This isn't my first rodeo, and I will not take a back seat to anyone on this board!
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and thuis the only way to have an "original" version of the car is to have it match the "factory correct" standard.
bingo
So just so I understand your position, if a car had dealer installed side moldings that were NOT installed by the factory, this would no longer be considered a "factory correct" car?
yes...factory correct w/ dealer installed option. and hood bird was also a factory option, but ill bet dealers installed hundreds of em. (didnt effect shaker decal)
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I'm going to put up my over beaten piece of bloody pounded thin prime meat back up here, so where did my imaginary shaker decals come from?
(http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x466/rogerbb/images12.jpg)
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I don't claim to be an authority on the subject, but I did own several Trans ams between 77-79 and they were all either brand new or slightly used. Back then the 6.6 Ltr decal was what you saw if the car had the lower performance Pontiac 400 or the Olds 403. The higher output Pontiac 400 always had the T/A 6.6 decal. The cars I remember not having any decals on the shaker were those with the chevy engine, and there were a few. I am a big fan of Pontiacs, always have been, can't tell you how many Pontiacs I've owned through the years, way too many to list, and I do believe that in todays market a 77-79 Trans am with the Pontiac 400 especially the ones with the 4 speed manual tend to be worth more. A 79 400 4 speed should be at the peak of the value charts as those fall in the low production catagory, plus they were produced late in the 79 model year. With all that said, and I probably won't make many friends here by saying this, but in my opinion the better engine was the Olds 403. Yes, it was rated with lower hp than the W72, but G.M also rated that power with less timing, as the 403 was produced by Olds rather than Pontiac, which obviously created a conflict. When the timing on the Olds engine was set at it's optimum, the Olds actually made more power. The Olds 403 also didn't suffer from bearing issues as did the Pontiacs. BTW, my latest project was selected specifically because it had a Pontiac engine.
one word "siamesed"
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Between the time you car was built whenever in 1978 and Nov 1979 (1980 models already out) when you bought your car is anybodys guess. The 1979 6.6 LITRE shaker decal was available during that time. I also find it odd that your car was produced without a jack, spare tire and inflator can. Now there was a time in early 1977 these cars were delivered with full size spares instead or space saver tire.
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No, I agree w/ you, I think the person had all that taken out for more room in the trunk, I made them put all new stuff in before i signed off on the car, I went back to the dealer, from the invoice it was a stock car and they said it was one of the general mgr's car for a year. John, I wasn't referring to you when I made the pebble beach comment, that was a show here in Mi, I would love to have a couple with you and talk TA's!
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I don't claim to be an authority on the subject, but I did own several Trans ams between 77-79 and they were all either brand new or slightly used. Back then the 6.6 Ltr decal was what you saw if the car had the lower performance Pontiac 400 or the Olds 403. The higher output Pontiac 400 always had the T/A 6.6 decal. The cars I remember not having any decals on the shaker were those with the chevy engine, and there were a few. ...
I'll agree with you on 77 and 79, but not on 78. The 1978 T/A I bought in July of 1978 had just been offloaded from the transport truck when I first saw it, because the dealer called me as soon as it was delivered. It did not have a shaker callout decal and it was the Pontiac 400 (L78), since I had insisted on having a Pontiac engine.
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I'll agree with you on 77 and 79, but not on 78. The 1978 T/A I bought in July of 1978 had just been offloaded from the transport truck when I first saw it, because the dealer called me as soon as it was delivered. It did not have a shaker callout decal and it was the Pontiac 400 (L78), since I had insisted on having a Pontiac engine.
I don't doubt your observation, but that was probably the exception and not the rule. Back then quality control was no where near what it is today. I had ordered in 77 a silver Trans am with white seats and red console and dash, beautiful combo, and I too watched it as it was unloaded and the drivers door had a paint run that went from the side mirror to the door handle. You would think that they would never release and ship a car with that big an issue, but they did. A missing decal would not have been that big of a deal, and upon request, the selling dealer would have taken care of it no charge. I took delivery of that car, but was very upset that my brand new car required the door to be repainted.
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I bought an original non-Y88 Solar Gold T/A from the original owner. L78 engine with no callouts. The L78 Marty car I sold Rainman had callouts installed at the dealership per the original buyer's request. It came without callouts from the factory. My former Y88 with a W72 had the T/A 6.6 callouts. Again, a 100% original car. Just my personal observation from 3 1978 400 engine T/A's that all had never been altered/painted and that I can verify from the original owners before I bought them.
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I'll agree with you on 77 and 79, but not on 78. The 1978 T/A I bought in July of 1978 had just been offloaded from the transport truck when I first saw it, because the dealer called me as soon as it was delivered. It did not have a shaker callout decal and it was the Pontiac 400 (L78), since I had insisted on having a Pontiac engine.
I don't doubt your observation, but that was probably the exception and not the rule.
No, that was the rule.
I don't claim to be an authority on the subject, but I did own several Trans ams between 77-79 and they were all either brand new or slightly used. Back then the 6.6 Ltr decal was what you saw if the car had the lower performance Pontiac 400 or the Olds 403. The higher output Pontiac 400 always had the T/A 6.6 decal. The cars I remember not having any decals on the shaker were those with the chevy engine, and there were a few.
Chevy Engines were not installed in the Trans Ams until 1980.
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I think that the decal issue must be a regional thing. Most all 78 I saw back then had the decal on the scoop. Some said 6.6 ltr and some said T/A 6.6. It was how we all knew what the car came with on the weekend cruises that Dallas was famous for. As for the chevy engine, one of my friends had ordered a 79 with one. I believe he said that it was a California option. It came with a 4 speed, and his intentions for ordering it that way was to drop a 400 small block chevy in it's place. I don't know what the big deal is any way, just as there are more Black/gold editions now than ever produced, and yet some people still consider them to be worth more.
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Too funny "I bought my car used from a lot in this condition, so that just proves it's original" What a goose.