Author Topic: Full engine rebuild - 1/6/07 Fixed  (Read 20204 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline rkellerjr

  • Ohio Firebirds
  • Lifetime Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4898
Re: Full engine rebuild - a little premature
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2007, 09:51:32 PM »
Ah, well, umm, errr,  I guess I'm gonna have to decline that offer.  Now, a donation of $500 would certainly be acceptable and appreciated :P
Rich

Offline TransAmGuy

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 302
  • '78 in progess.............
Re: Full engine rebuild - a little premature
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2007, 09:53:20 PM »
Ah, well, umm, errr,  I guess I'm gonna have to decline that offer.  Now, a donation of $500 would certainly be acceptable and appreciated :P

Fine, I'll go to $550.......but you gotta throw in a tank of gas.............

LOL

Vance

1978 Trans Am
1987 GTA
1995 Grand Am
2003 Grand Prix

Offline rkellerjr

  • Ohio Firebirds
  • Lifetime Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4898
Re: Full engine rebuild - a little premature
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2007, 09:55:40 PM »
LOL, I love your "go getem" attitude!
Rich

Offline TransAmGuy

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 302
  • '78 in progess.............
Re: Full engine rebuild - a little premature
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2007, 09:57:41 PM »
LOL, I love your "go getem" attitude!

Keep in mind that my very first T/A was a red '75 455.   Only it had the white interior.   So I have a soft spot for your car.   :)
Vance

1978 Trans Am
1987 GTA
1995 Grand Am
2003 Grand Prix

Offline rkellerjr

  • Ohio Firebirds
  • Lifetime Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4898
Re: Full engine rebuild - a little premature
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2007, 09:58:54 PM »
Well Vance, I am pushing hard to have this car ready for the Nationals.  I want to drive it up so if your planning on going there's a good chance we'll shake hands and you'll get to see it.  Be warned, it's only a real nice 20 footer. :)

After this rebuild I need to get the suspension replaced and the windows to stop leaking and she'll be ready.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2007, 10:05:30 PM by rkellerjr »
Rich

Offline TransAmGuy

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 302
  • '78 in progess.............
Re: Full engine rebuild - a little premature
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2007, 10:15:36 PM »
Good luck with the rebuild.  They aren't as hard as you might think.   Just be meticulous.  I have a long way to go with my '78 but I hope to make the '08 Smokey and the Bandit run.
Vance

1978 Trans Am
1987 GTA
1995 Grand Am
2003 Grand Prix

Offline Mwieczorek

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 308
Re: Full engine rebuild - a little premature
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2007, 10:33:14 PM »
Rich,

Can we get a little more information about what you're starting with?  I saw Rick said you have 6X heads.  Are those 6X-8's or 6X-4's?  They have different chamber sizes, so they will determine what your final compression ratio can be with them.

What all is included in that rebuild kit you mentioned?  For that price, it must be using basic cast pistons.  What do they look like?  Have you seen a picture or can you give us a link to the kit?  If the pistons have a big chamfer around the edge, you don't want them because they'll lower your compression ratio. 

Here's a .030" over rebuild kit from Summit, it's assembled by Federal Mogul, they own Fel-Pro, and I think Speed Pro and Sealed power, so the gaskets and pistons and rings should be good parts.  The pistons are forged and it uses moly rings, those are both good things.  It does have the main and rod bearings 0.020" under, meaning that the kit is assembled assuming that your crank bearing surfaces will be gouged and that your crank needs to be ground, which it may or may not be.  This rebuild kit DOES include the oild pump, which is around $50 by itself.

Summit Rebuild Kit Link

EDIT: I looked again and I saw that you can get this kit with whatever size rod and main bearings you need, so you aren't limited to the 0.020" undersized ones in the kit I listed.  Cool beans!

It's a little more expensive than the $400 you budgeted, but at least with this one you know what you're getting parts wise.  Federal Mogul is a known company that makes a good product.  Whatever you do, don't skimp on internals, they're awful hard to get to and fix after the engine is in the car.   ;D

If you re-use the stock rods (like I did), that's ok, but you have GOT to replace the stock rod bolts with a set of ARP rod bolts.  The biggest cause of rod failiure on stock Poncho engines was due to rod bolt breakage.  Here's a link to the rod bolts you should get:

ARP rod bolts

I don't see any reason you can't re-use your cam, it's a single pattern cam so it wouldn't be my first choice.  Single pattern means that the intake and exhaust lobes have equal duration and lift,  Pontiac engines usually work better with a cam with more duration on the exhaust lobe.  Go over it real good to make sure there's no scuffing on the lobe surfaces.  If it checks out and you have your heart on saving it, go ahead and re-use it.  If you were going to change cams, with your gearing I would suggest you go with a Pontiac "068" cam, it was the Ram Air/HO cam from the late '60's.  You can get a Melling stock replacement 068 cam from Autozone for $109.  I think it would perform better than that Lunati cam, but that is just my opinion.   :)

That's my advice for the moment.

Matt

« Last Edit: December 30, 2007, 01:47:04 AM by Mwieczorek »
Doing what the factory didn't is the essence of hot-rodding.

Offline w72transamowner

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1343
  • Tidewater Trans Am Club (www.ttac.net)
Re: Full engine rebuild - a little premature
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2007, 07:47:26 PM »

After a year of painstaking troubleshooting and spending hundreds of dollars it looks like my troubles won't be solved without a full rebuild of the engine.  I'm not going to go into the whys in this thread, let's just agree that it is going to happen.  I've done some quick shopping and calling around today and so far, at a high level, my costs are around $1,500. That gives me the following...


Wow Rich, this is the first time I've read this thread.  What happened to your motor?

Where are you going for a rebuild?  $1500 is pretty low so make sure you know something about this vendor.  When I started looking around last year for a rebuild, I was being quoted $3000 to $4000.


I think I have 3:23 gears Rick.  60mph runs me about 2500rpm with stock tires.


I thought I heard you say once that you had a Camaro 3:73 rear end in your car?
1978 Trans Am WS6/W72, Auto (purchased Sep 00)

http://www.motortopia.com/garage/cars/carfanatic1


Offline brian c

  • Lifetime Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4880
  • Ohio Firebirds Member
    • Y88 Resto
Re: Full engine rebuild - a little premature
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2007, 08:03:33 PM »
Depends on the shop, what's being done, and what's included. I had quotes from $1800 to $6000 to rebuild my 400 in NY. The low end was a tear down, rebuild with stock rebuild kit, and reassemble. High end was all new parts, machine work and 3 dyno pulls after a thorough break in. When all was said and done on my 455 I put $2200 into it as it needed an overbore and valve job including hardened seats for Unleaded fuel.

I think you're right on not budging on the shop breaking in the engine Rich because that means they cannot blame you for not following a breakin procedure to the T. And you might want to look into a different head casting to bump the compression up a bit. Should definitely wake that motor up.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2007, 08:05:14 PM by brian c »

1978 Y88, '70 455 HO block bored 0.060, TH350, 3.42:1 gears...Oct '08 Fbodywarehouse Calendar - Woot!
1980 Firebird - no engine/tranny... to be pacecar clone

Offline Mwieczorek

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 308
Re: Full engine rebuild - a little premature
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2007, 09:48:28 PM »
And you might want to look into a different head casting to bump the compression up a bit. Should definitely wake that motor up.

I woulnd't toss those 6X heads just yet.  If they're 6X-4's, you can mill them 0.060" or so and get your compression right up to about 9.5:1, perfect for the street.  If they're 6X-8's, well, then yeah, you might be better off looking for a different set of heads.

6X's were the best of the low compression heads, so at least that's something.

Matt
Doing what the factory didn't is the essence of hot-rodding.

Offline brian c

  • Lifetime Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4880
  • Ohio Firebirds Member
    • Y88 Resto
Re: Full engine rebuild - a little premature
« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2007, 09:58:39 PM »
And you might want to look into a different head casting to bump the compression up a bit. Should definitely wake that motor up.

I woulnd't toss those 6X heads just yet.  If they're 6X-4's, you can mill them 0.060" or so and get your compression right up to about 9.5:1, perfect for the street.  If they're 6X-8's, well, then yeah, you might be better off looking for a different set of heads.

6X's were the best of the low compression heads, so at least that's something.

Matt

Agreed but the cost to machine those heads *may* exceed the cost of buying a set of higher compression heads off eBay. Depends on what needs to be done to those 6x heads to bump up the compression along with any possible machining to the intake to get it to line up properly and then any valve train modifications to get the geometry right. Kind of a domino effect once you get into machining heads, block, etc.

1978 Y88, '70 455 HO block bored 0.060, TH350, 3.42:1 gears...Oct '08 Fbodywarehouse Calendar - Woot!
1980 Firebird - no engine/tranny... to be pacecar clone

Offline Mwieczorek

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 308
Re: Full engine rebuild - a little premature
« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2007, 01:14:35 AM »
Yep, I know.  That's exactly how my engine is set up.  I have 6X-4's and I had the deck face and intake face of the heads milled 0.060"  I think I paid $30 for a total of $120.  I re-used my OE valves, they were fine.  I had new guides, seals, springs, etc.  I think my total for the heads was around $400, but its been a few years so its a little fuzzy. 

As far as valvetrain geometry goes, I'm running aftermarket roller rockers with stock length pushrods.  They line up close enough that I didn't think different length pushrods were needed.  So far, it hasn't been an issue.

You know, maybe this thread ought to get moved to the technical section to get more exposure amongst the engine junkies in our midst?

Matt
Doing what the factory didn't is the essence of hot-rodding.

Offline rkellerjr

  • Ohio Firebirds
  • Lifetime Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4898
Re: Full engine rebuild - a little premature
« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2007, 09:28:41 PM »
I stopped by and talked to the shop today.  I got several recommendations both from people I know and don't know.  All positive. However, the one thing that sticks in my craw is no written warranty.  Basically they indicated that they could give a warranty but the first thing on the warranty, being an escape clause, is that if the engine is not installed by a certified professional they do not have to warranty the work.  He said that's pretty standard fair for warranties.  Now, even though he said that, he said that they do stand behind there work and if there was anything wrong with the engine they certainly would warrant the work and fix it, if it was within in a reasonable time period of the build.  He indicated two years.

He also said that a budget of $1500 was pushing it but he would see what he could do.  The engine would be mid-range for highway driving but also good torque for off the line.  I should have a complete estimate by Wed. and will see where we are.
Rich

Offline turbota400

  • Adv. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2527
Re: Full engine rebuild - Update 12/31/07
« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2007, 10:15:23 PM »
Sounds like you are off to a good start.  That sounds normal on the warranty.  Good luck and keep us posted.
Shawn
1972 Chevy C-10
1980 Trans Am Pace Car - 428 ci Poncho in the works
1992 S-10 2WD- Work Bomber/Gas saver
1997 Chevy X-cab 4x4 - Vortec 350

Offline RENOVATIONS

  • Administrator
  • Lifetime Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10623
Re: Full engine rebuild - Update 12/31/07
« Reply #29 on: January 01, 2008, 02:49:34 AM »
Is it too late to budget in a nice noisy Pete Jackson gear drive???  ;D
Jeff

Projects:
_____________
1978 Trans Am
1970 Camaro
1970 'Cuda
1987 Fiero GT
1982 Trans Am
1986 Corvette