Author Topic: Following in R Keller's footsteps...another 400 rebuild  (Read 27163 times)

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Offline MacT/A80

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Following in R Keller's footsteps...another 400 rebuild
« on: February 22, 2009, 09:16:16 AM »
well what was supposed to be a simple rocker, cam and lifter swap turned into pulling the motor out to have it completely gone through.  i will be having the heads redone with a nice street valve job, possible replacing a few exhaust valves, new iron guides, seals and possibly springs if they won't support the new cam. then the block goes in for a good wash to get rid of the metal shavings from the worn cam bearings, then all new bearings, rings, possibly pistons, and rod reconditioning. not quite as extensive as Rich's build, but still significant,lol heres some pics from the initial break down with help from Hoss and his dad, thanx guys for all the help!!







sorry the progress in the pics is backwards,lol
[IMG]
1980 Trans Am, 400 Pontiac, auto
2011 Mustang, 1971 GMC C2500, 250 Straight 6, 4sp

Offline RPO_Z06

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Re: Following in R Keller's footsteps...another 400 rebuild
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2009, 01:32:06 PM »
So was it the discovery of worn cam bearings that made you decide to go all the way ?
Jamie
'76 Golden rod yellow/Deluxe buckskin, factory 455 4-speed.
'01 Speedway white Z06/mod-red, LS6 6-speed. (493 rwhp)
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Offline bigty88

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Re: Following in R Keller's footsteps...another 400 rebuild
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2009, 01:39:05 PM »
What would the cost be on something like that?

Are you doing all the work?

Tommy

Offline rkellerjr

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Re: Following in R Keller's footsteps...another 400 rebuild
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2009, 01:48:51 PM »
Deja Vu... no... NO..... ;)

Excellent, your going to love it when done.  Just a sneak peak, mine fired over today, I'm uploading pics and video as I write this ;D
Rich

Offline MacT/A80

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Re: Following in R Keller's footsteps...another 400 rebuild
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2009, 07:27:45 PM »
So was it the discovery of worn cam bearings that made you decide to go all the way ?
well first i was just going to have the heads gone through, then when i pulled the valley pan,lifters and cam, i saw the bearings were scuffed up around the top due to the rockers not being set right by DCI motorsports 2 years ago, and since they weren't set right, the cam didn't have enough downward pressure on the bearings and was walking all over, so here we are,lol. i had by buddy's dad come over and check everything out as he knows his stuff when it comes to motors, so he was able to point me in the right direction and told me everything that needed done.
What would the cost be on something like that?

Are you doing all the work?
not sure of the cost yet, haven't had the time to sit down and figure it out, Hoss has a pricing breakdown from where i am having the work done since his motor is at the same shop being done now (Crank and Sleeve in Giard, OH), so no i will only be pulling the motor and putting everything in boxes to be assembled at crank and sleeve, then putting her back in.
Deja Vu... no... NO..... ;)

Excellent, your going to love it when done.  Just a sneak peak, mine fired over today, I'm uploading pics and video as I write this ;D
excellent to here bud!! i'm also very glad i am getting this done because i plan on driving the 80 to nats this year, so no breakdowns i hope!! can't wait to here it Rich!
[IMG]
1980 Trans Am, 400 Pontiac, auto
2011 Mustang, 1971 GMC C2500, 250 Straight 6, 4sp

Offline Joker (§ir£Ðragon)

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Re: Following in R Keller's footsteps...another 400 rebuild
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2009, 07:36:50 PM »
Your cam in your Pontiac engine was walking? Was the retainer in place?
Larry


Offline Rick

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Re: Following in R Keller's footsteps...another 400 rebuild
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2009, 07:45:19 PM »
That was my question. ???

Offline Eagle 1

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Re: Following in R Keller's footsteps...another 400 rebuild
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2009, 07:53:51 PM »
His retainers are there by looking at the picture.
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Offline Joker (§ir£Ðragon)

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Re: Following in R Keller's footsteps...another 400 rebuild
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2009, 07:59:49 PM »
The only pic that shows the end of the cam is the first one and the retainer isn't there. (There's only one.)
Larry


Offline Hoss T/A WS6

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Re: Following in R Keller's footsteps...another 400 rebuild
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2009, 10:56:04 PM »
The valve train was not properly adjusted and were only hand tight on the passenger side, and the same on the drivers! It was never adjusted down tight enough told put enough pressure to hold the cam in place! Most often, the wear on the cam bearings should on the bottom and the wear was on the top and to the drivers side! 90% of the pushrods were worn down and had flat ends rather than round balls! The retainers were there but wore out, and you could move the pushrods back and forth, the rockers would move back and forth and would chatter! It just was not properly put together in the first place! Shame, it was a good motor too!! The extremely loose valve train was the initial ticking nose he has but, once we tore into it, realized a bigger issue! This is a better result as the motor already has 33,000 on it, plus they were drive to the track, run it for the night and drive home!!! He will definitely feel a lot better about driving to the NATS this year with a fresh motor!! Sorry for chiming in and telling your story/ Daren, just thought i would fill in the blanks. It was a good day, but the work is not over as the motor now has to come out, so hopefully by the end of the week, it will be out and torn down!!
"If you wannna go up in the air, and make a lot of smoke....Buy a rocket"

Offline Rick

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Re: Following in R Keller's footsteps...another 400 rebuild
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2009, 11:10:34 PM »
It sounds like the valve train just beat itself to death.  The cam shouldn't depend on the lifters to hold it in place, but the entire system is designed to work properly with the lifters in constant contact with the cam.  If the rockers aren't adjusted properly you'll end up smacking them as the lifters rise -- that's evident from what you described as happening to the pushrod ends.  Somebody missed the part of the assembly where the valve train is adjusted, so there's no doubt it was their fault.  A seemingly minor oversight is what caused you this problem.

Offline Hoss T/A WS6

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Re: Following in R Keller's footsteps...another 400 rebuild
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2009, 09:40:50 AM »
Ha HA, ya i had to chuckle about the pictures myself!

Yepp it was just not properly adjusted and it caused a big problem! I will let Mac get on here and talk about it, but the motor for my 80 is at Crank and Sleeve now, and hopefully but the week end, or early next week his will be there too, depending on both our schedules! I have the spare Engine stand and the Engine Crane, but we both work all the time!!
"If you wannna go up in the air, and make a lot of smoke....Buy a rocket"

Offline Joker (§ir£Ðragon)

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Re: Following in R Keller's footsteps...another 400 rebuild
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2009, 09:53:19 AM »
Ok, I see what you're talking about. But he had mentioned the cam had been "walking". As Rick said, a "walking" condition shouldn't have happened if the retainer I mentioned was in place. I'm talking about the one that holds the cam in place. The one behind the timing gear.

Also, is the oil galley plug inside the distributor hole in place? Sounds like there may have been a possible upper end oiling issue as well. I've seen engines run with low downward lifter pressure for years, sometimes on purpose (think Rhoads lifters) and not do that kind of damage. Especially on a relatively new engine.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 09:54:54 AM by §ir£Ðragon »
Larry


Offline rad400

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Re: Following in R Keller's footsteps...another 400 rebuild
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2009, 01:45:40 PM »
Good luck with the build
Conrad
79 Trans am 400 t400 3500 stall #12 heads holley 750 vac carb. Torker II intake 3:73:1 gears 12 bolt rear.

Offline bigty88

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Re: Following in R Keller's footsteps...another 400 rebuild
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2009, 06:38:16 PM »
Hammer lmao ;D ;D ;D

Little Tommy needs to get his done ...not sure of the c$sh...

Tommy