Hitman's Pontiac Trans Am Forum
Trans Am Information => Trans Am Information => Topic started by: v8nut72 on March 26, 2008, 02:51:52 PM
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I've been reading a few threads and just wondered as to which speedo my 78 should have? It's got a 160mph in it but if it's not original then that would mean the mileage is bogus. :-\
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Nope not original to the car. It should be a 100 mph I think (might be 120). White and blue markings. No trip odometer and two warning lights at the bottom - seat belt and brake.
Now its entirely possible the mileage is accurate *IF* the person who did the swap took the time to adjust the mileage on the 160mph speedo to match that of the original one taken out. It's anyone's guess if that person did it or not...
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Oh Bollocks! >:( Do you know of anyway to check correct mileage from state titles or anything like that? Dealer said the mileage was documented from Arizona Dept of motor vehicles.
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What did the 160 MPH come out of then? I also have a 78 with a 160 speedo in it and if its not original than for re-sale the title work gets funky because it does not have the original speedo in it. I mean i am not planning on getting rid of it, but when its all done and HAD to sell it, than that is not cool.
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Could the original owner have just replaced the speedo face? Then just changed the gear in the tranny to keep the speed reading correct?
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What about the Tach? Is that original? Didn't the 160 speedo come with an 8K tach? I guess your car might not have the rally gauges...I assume it does.
Chances are they swapped the entire cluster. I really doubt just the face was swapped. The mileage is probably not correct.
The correct speedo is 100mph.
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160 mph speedos came in all Firebirds from 1970 to 1974.
Some had 2 idiot lights on the bottom, some had 3.
George 8)
You mean one and two, right? "Fasten Seat Belts" and/or "Brake". Never heard of one with 3.
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Yea mine has a 6000 tach though. Is that correct? and i do not remember seeing any idiot lights!
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Yes, the 160mph speedo stopped in 1974, but some leftover ones made it into the 1975 model year. Not alot of them, but some did. After that, they were all 100mph speedos'.
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Thats interesting to know that!! I guess i will have to do some searching now!!
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Man, I'm starting to regret not doing more investigating before buying the car from that dealer. Tach is a 6k and it looks like the brake light is off to one side (right I think). Guess I'll have a few projects this summer.
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Yea, i am not to happy to here that the speedo is not original. Now if i ever have to sell it, the resale will be lower because the TRUE MILES ARE UNKNOWN according to the BMV. This kinda sucks
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I wouldn't think correct mileage would be much of an buying/selling issue on anything other than a "survivor" car.
When did the 8K tach stop being used?
It was used in production beyond the 160 speedo, yes?
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Well, the car I bought was basically being sold as a genuine 58k car which reflected in the price I paid. It certainly seems to be a solid car with what looks to be all original components but I HATE getting surprises like this as I feel like I've been cheated and don't know what comeback I have on the dealer. Car was sold as is with no warranty so I guess that would be his get out clause. :-\
Currently speaking to him about the issues, if nothing gets resolved I'll be posting all details about the car so no one elses falls into this trap.
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You won't get much sympathy from the legal system on your problem. I bet the dealer didn't even realize that the speedo was incorrect for the car. And, who's to know that the car didn't have less mileage than what's shown on the speedo.
So, if the car has the appearance of low mileage you should be happy with how ever many miles the car has. The main thing is to get a solid, rust free car for a fair price. If your car did actually spend a lot of time in Arizona it most likely is in great shape as far as rust. You may have done worse with a lower mileage car that spent its life in snowy country.
Don't let the speedo sour you on the car. Chalk it up to your education. I bet you find more stuff that's not original for the car. These cars are a beautiful examples of our automobile history. Enjoy it, they're a blast to own.
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I understand your frustration but I'd wager ta78w72 is right that you may night find satisfaction in the court system. You might be able to get some satisfaction by contacting your state's DMV department OR the Better Business Bureau.
I wouldn't let it sour your experience with the car but I'd definitely think twice before working with the dealer who sold you the car.
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That is why I asked you the question on your other post on where you bought the car from because I know some shady dealers there in AZ that are well known for pulling fast ones on Customers.
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I'm not sure anyone was trying to pull a fast one. Otherwise, they would have installed a 100 mph speedo and not the desirable 160 mph unit. I bet that was changed out just to get the 160 mph speedo in the car.
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I dont know about AZ, but as an Ohio Dealer, you have full recourse against the dealer, If the title says actual mileage, and the dealer sold it as such, you can ask for a full refund, unless they have documentation that a certified service facility changed the odometer and recalibrated the actual mileage. There would be a notorized statement and a sticker inside of the door. ( federal regulations ) Legally that is known as odometer tampering, As this cannot be confirmed as correct. If the title says TMU ( true mileage unknown ) , exceeded or exempt, you have no recourse. If you want to discuss this further, PM me and i will give you my phone #.
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When did the 8K tach stop being used?
It was used in production beyond the 160 speedo, yes?
The 8K tach stopped after 1977.
(http://www.78ta.com/fpics/356209e0.jpg)
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Thanks.
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Correct as I know, 1978 has 100 speedo, and 6K tach, blue and white as shown in the cluster above on the speedo. 1979 was not blue as I recall, and the tach had a borg warner clock that ran on a motor, rather than the solenoid wind system. I thought 77 and 78 were the same, not sure of 76, thought it may have the 8000 tach. 79 had the other color (orange?) 80's got wierd with the print and 85 MPH.
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The 8K tach stopped after 1977.
You mean 1976? 77's received 100 mph units w/the 6k tach. I know -- there's a 44,000 mile 1-owner original sitting in my garage.
Here's the gauge breakdown though:
- 160mph speedometers through 1974 (early cars had 1 BRAKE warning light, later years in this range had 2 lights Seat Belt and Brake, no km/h writing).
- 1975-1976 had 8k tachs with the 100 mph units w/blue km/h writing.
- 1977-1978 had 6k tachs with 100 mph units with blue km/h (later 78 cars got the upgraded "Quartz" clock movement, whether or not it was denoted on the tach face)
- 1979 had 6k tachs w/the QUARTZ clock movement (whether or not it was denoted on the gauge face), and 100 mph speedometers with ORANGE/GOLD (not blue) km/h writing.
- 1980-1981 had 6k tachs and 85 mph (3 warning light) speedometers, all gauges received a newer, wider font.
Hope this clarifies gauges for everyone!
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Great info above. Can I interchange the "quartz" borg warner clock into the 1978 tach for better time keeping? Are the pins the same? Can I put my blue face and speedo into the 1979 stamping to accomodate the clock, or will the tach assy. fit, and just change the face? Anyone do this?
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Great info above. Can I interchange the "quartz" borg warner clock into the 1978 tach for better time keeping? Are the pins the same? Can I put my blue face and speedo into the 1979 stamping to accomodate the clock, or will the tach assy. fit, and just change the face? Anyone do this?
The tach (and clock) mounts to a flat metal "plate" which then screws to the cluster casing. At least on the Late 78 - 81 cars. I don't have my clusters handy, but I believe the Early 78 and prior tachs mount in a similar same way. IF the bulbs, screw holes, printed circuit, etc all mount in the same locations, and the early tachs mount to a separate plate that screws to the cluster you should be able to swap the tach/clock assy. I've seen later tachs in quite a few early cars. You can denote the later tach/clock as the rear of the gauge will have an offset white plastic "oval" shaped casing over the "guts" rather than the round cylinder-type protrusion from the earlier tachs.
At the very least, you can get the entire cluster from a 78/79 and transplant your earlier gauges and circuit board in. This probably would be the easiest way to get the newer tach/clock in an older car w/out it.
The Quartz clock mounts in a slightly different way, and as such, the clock adjuster is in a different location. So you'll need the entire tach and a new plastic window to do the swap correctly. Otherwise the stuff won't line up properly.
If anyone can correct the above info, please feel free. This is to the best of my knowledge, as I don't have my spare clusters handy at present.
*EDIT: Actually, you should be able to find a later 78 cluster no problem and swap it right in, given you have a 78 to start with. The speedo just screws into the cluster by 2 small screws. But, double-check the wiring first and make sure the circuit is the same.
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Thanks, I'll check out the clusters I have and see what I need. Mine is an early 78, built in September 77, and came with the body color tail light grilles, not black like most 1978's. It does have the 79 type lettering, not 77.
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Thanks, I'll check out the clusters I have and see what I need. Mine is an early 78, built in September 77, and came with the body color tail light grilles, not black like most 1978's. It does have the 79 type lettering, not 77.
Your best bet is to remove your clock and send it in to get a quartz movement put in it. There was an article in High Performance Pontiac about this. It cost about $80.
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Find me that article or address, and I'll send in a spare.
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Find me that article or address, and I'll send in a spare.
September 2006
WWW.clocksandgauges.com
According to the article, quartz movements began with VIn 2W87Z8N177086 and 2W87Z8L175503
And for Canadian Exports 2W87Z8N173053 and 2W87Z8L180822
So this was a very, very late 78 modification. Those numbers must be close to the end of the 78 model year.
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The 8K tach stopped after 1977.
You mean 1976? 77's received 100 mph units w/the 6k tach. I know -- there's a 44,000 mile 1-owner original sitting in my garage.
Here's the gauge breakdown though:
- 160mph speedometers through 1974 (early cars had 1 BRAKE warning light, later years in this range had 2 lights Seat Belt and Brake, no km/h writing).
- 1975-1976 had 8k tachs with the 100 mph units w/blue km/h writing.
- 1977-1978 had 6k tachs with 100 mph units with blue km/h (later 78 cars got the upgraded "Quartz" clock movement, whether or not it was denoted on the tach face)
- 1979 had 6k tachs w/the QUARTZ clock movement (whether or not it was denoted on the gauge face), and 100 mph speedometers with ORANGE/GOLD (not blue) km/h writing.
- 1980-1981 had 6k tachs and 85 mph (3 warning light) speedometers, all gauges received a newer, wider font.
Hope this clarifies gauges for everyone!
Some of those years had carry overs on the gauges. I have had a couple of 1975 with the 160moh speedos in them and I have also had at least 3 1977's with the 8k tach in them as well.
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If anyone needs a '78 speedo I have one.
(http://www.78ta.com/gallery2/main.php/d/4639-1/Cluster.jpg)
I can sell the whole cluster or part it out.
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Some of those years had carry overs on the gauges. I have had a couple of 1975 with the 160moh speedos in them and I have also had at least 3 1977's with the 8k tach in them as well.
Interesting Hitman. I'm sure you've been around more cars than I, and know your stuff, so I'll take your word for it. I've never seen a carryover w/77's though in all the ones (early and late) I've seen. Interesting to know.
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Thanks for all the responses, the car does look like the mileage would suggest or less even. I guess it's just a little worrying to find these things out after buying but it is in very good condition. Dealer said that they verified it with DMV when he bought it from the previous owner who would have been the one who changed it.
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Some of those years had carry overs on the gauges. I have had a couple of 1975 with the 160moh speedos in them and I have also had at least 3 1977's with the 8k tach in them as well.
My 12/76 build date '77 T/A also has a 8k tach. I always wondered if it was carry over.