Topic: Adding relays to the power window circuit

[78ta]

Pinball,

quote "I hadnt picked up in your earlier post that there was such a voltage drop through the circuit breaker, is this labelled 'Existing Relay' in lee01 diagram?"

No, Check out the new circuit Lee01 posted. The circuit breaker is on the top left of that one. Also, here's pic I barrowed from Hoghead's write up on power windows.(group effort ayy?)
It is labeled. You should be able to see how much of a voltage loss, if any, you have by checking the orange w/black stripe wire plugged into the fuse box just to the right of the cricuit breaker. That's the rectangular metal box on the fuse box. If you have 12v there, you're good to go. You could leave it running to the relay below the steering column and use the pink wire coming out of that and going to the switch as is. You can even tap into the orange w/black wire next to the circuit breaker and run that new wire to your (87's) to power your window motors through the relays. It would be protected by your circuit breaker as originally designed. If you were to ever start having a problem with the windows being slow, just check the voltage at that orange w/black wire first and if it's less than 10 volts or so replace the circuit breaker.
This scenario allows you to use almost all of the original wiring.

[78ta]

Lee01,
That's awesome.
The only thing still sort of up in the air is the size of the circuit breaker. I've seen it as 30 amps and 40 amps but neither were in factory documentation. I'll see what NAPA says.

How much trouble would it be to change the colors of the wires going from the switch to the motors? I included the colors in my previous post.

You rock!

Thanks again,
Randy

[lee01]

Ok, new diagram. lol!
Once its done properly, its gonna be a great tool.
Any change, just let me know

[ta78w72]

78ta, I knew you weren't criticizing me but what I was trying to say is it's OK to do so.  My objective is to get a solution out to people that's useful.  I was a little concerned that I might have had the diagram wrong but I guess not.  It was just a little hard to figure out.  Lee's schematic is far and away better.  It looks perfect to me.  Once you've had a chance to double check it, maybe Brett can put the schematic on the site.

It's beautiful.  Lee, you did a fantastic job!

[78ta]

Hi Russ,
Glad to hear that. I agree completely. Everyone pitching in to help each other is what this site and the hobby is all about.

Lee01,
Spectacular job. All of the wires are where they should be and you even managed to put a white stripe on the blue one. I think we all agree on the fact that we would like to come up with a schematic that anyone with even minimal knowledge of electronics could read and use to wire their windows. That said, you're going to want to strangle me but I do see something that needs to be tweeked because it could cause someone some confusion. It's very minor and not your fault at all because you did exactly what I said to do in my last post. I just didn't make it clear enough. The colors for the brown and blue wires going from the driver's side motor to the 30 terminals is fine. The wires going from the Passenger side motor to the 30 terminals need to be just like the driver's side. That is blue - up and brown - down. As Russ said, if we make all of the wires the same colors the factory used, more people will be able to use the drawing with confidence. People who know very little about electrical wiring can still match up colors. 

That should do it for now as far as the theory of operation and the schematic goes. Now I need to get out to my car and check out the fuse box and see which way would be best to go regarding keeping or eliminating the cicuit breaker and running the new fused 12 v supply line. I did check Autozone for the circuit breakers. They do carry a small spade lug type 30 amp circuit breaker for less than $4. So that may be the best route because it would require less work in rewiring and allow more of the original harnesses to be used. I know Russ metioned that he preferred fuses over circuit breakers but if they both plug in the same way, everyone will have their choice. We're getting there......

I may not be able to check the board much for the next week. I live in Louisville, KY and the Kentucky Derby is this coming Saturday. So I will be busy this week getting the house ready for our 18th annual Derby Party. There are usually about 75 people here Derby day.
Randy

[pinball]

The colors for the brown and blue wires going from the driver's side motor to the 30 terminals is fine. The wires going from the Passenger side motor to the 30 terminals need to be just like the driver's side. That is blue - up and brown - down.

Hi 78ta,

Personally I am planning on adding the relays close to the PW switch so they can be hidden under the console, therefore for me the diagram is correct 

But this does bring up the question of relay placement, if the relays are placed near the PW switch, then the wires coming off of the 30 terminals would be as lee01 currently has them, however if the relays are placed closer to the PW motors, then the wires would be coloured as you suggest.  As different coloured wires are used throughout the PW wiring circuit, it would be hard to come up with a basic wiring diagram to suit all.

[edek]

Lee01
Your diagram is awesome.
Extremely helpful.

[ta78w72]

The only thing missing is your name and something that says it may be used for trans am enthusiast personal use.

It's not a schematic...it's a work of art!

[78ta]

Pinball,

Yeah, I know. I said it was a minor thing. It would be difficult to cover all applications. But really, the only factory wires that are left out of the drawing now are the 2 cross dash wires which are dark blue w/white stripe and brown w/white stripe. That harness connects the console harness to the two door harnesses. Those are the ones that I understand are very hard to get out of a car and are therefore hard to find. I didn't want to confuse/complicate things more by mentioning them before but they are there in the factory wiring. I guess we have to draw the line somewhere. If anyone has a problem with the drawing, they can always post questions here or check the service manual if they have one.
 
The drawing as is may be correct for your application. I've been trying to figure out how to address the different uses for it. Some will want it to install PW from scratch and some will use it to improve or repair their existing PW's.
If using it to retrofit/repair existing wiring, the wire colors do matter because they will be looking for those colors. Also, if installing PW from scratch, they may have some of the original wire harness so, again, the wire colors for that short run of wire from right at the boot(inside the car) to the motor inside the door will matter.

I think the only time the wire colors won't matter is if someone is installing PW from scratch and has no wiring at all. Or if someone wants to retrofit/repair their PW by just replacing ALL of the wiring.
So, I'm thinking it would be simpler to have one diagram with the correct wire colors so that if it matters, they are correct and if it doesn't matter, well it won't matter. Right? Again, I'm just thinking that we should try to make it (for lack of a better term) idiot proof so that anyone can use it for which ever application they have regardless of electrical experience .....retrofit/repair or new install. Hence the match this color to that color thinking.
As far as the location of the relays. I also plan to put them under the map pocket area of my console. That way, they are easily accessable should there be a problem. I thought about putting them in the door tywrapped to the motor but there they will be exposed to more eliments like dirt, water or at least moisture etc and you'd have to take your door panel off to access them. In the map pocket location, you can just buy a PW switch and the console wiring harness with the switch connector on it and that's all the factory wiring you'd need as it will have the correct connector for the switch and will reach the map pocket. Of coarse you need some kind of boots but you can buy those new or gets some that are similar from the junk yard.
As far as tieing all of the red and black wires together, you could buy 2 distribution blocks from Radio Shack but I think I will simply put eyelets on the wires and use a small bolt and nut to attach them all together and cover that with heat shrink tubing. Red and black seperately of coarse. Less money and takes up less space than 2 dist blocks.

[lee01]

I will edit my drawing this evening with the good color wiring. No biggie
I think the best place to install these relay is under the console. No dirt or water, close to all the needed wiring.
Easy access. Can't wait to installed these relay!!

[ta78w72]

When I do the conversion to power windows from manual, I plan to put the relay's under the console too.  I may end up making my own harness.  I hate the thought of cutting up an original harness.

[78ta]

By the way, even though the price of the relays and the pig tails is pretty cheap on that web site, I checked some cars while at the junk yard yesterday and found several late model cars use these relays so that is another source for them if needed. There are four right behing the passenger side strut tower in the engine compartment on Grand Ams around 97 up. Only 2 of them have large enough wires on their pigtails though so you'd need to grab them 2 each from a couple different cars. They are also mounted on 2 small brackets so if you wanted to mount yours somewhere other than under the console, you could use those brackets too.

[pinball]

Hi 78ta,

Your argument for changing the colours in the diagram is a valid one, and as you have said the more 'idiot proof' the better. 

Being in the Uk we dont have a ready supply of Grand Ams, but I bought my relays this morning and Im just waiting to get the TA back from the garage, hopefully I'll get to try this out at the weekend.  I have to say Jegs and Summit both have nice 4 relay module (i dont have the part number to hand), but I have read a post on the site from someone who used one and it seems to fit nicely under the console.

Thanks for all your help and a huge thanks to lee01 for the diagram.

[lee01]

Ok, did I did it right 78ta?? 
Getting confuse lol!! 
Any change let me know, I want to get it right!

[bad76]

The only thing that i would do diferent is run the nuetral ( ground ) side thru the switch instead of the hot. By doing this you will put less strain on your power window switch and this is also the way that most switching in new cars work. Instead of buying four relays summit sells a relay board that has four relays installed onto it and it has nice screw terminals.