Topic: Turbo TA value?

[hada76]

simple fact was probably 8 out of 10 turbo cars got non turbo engine swaps when they blew. guys didnt trust them (they were a bit fragile) well enough to put the rebuild cash back into them. easier to drop in a 455 and GO.

[N PRGRES]

With all that being said I would recommend you keep it stock.  I struggled with this with my TATA and it's 403, of course I "lucked out" and found that found that it was actually a 455 in it, hense my car is no longer numbers matching and of course now the value is greatly decreased.  I will find a correct 403 for it, and be put aside.  I can get away with it since the original engine was missing to begin with.  Had it been correct and original, it would have remained that way.

[Transam87020]

Gotta be honest, The car will be worth more with the #'s matching engine.  But I didn't
really buy my car looking for resale value, bought it as I wanted a fun car that looks great.
I have an 81 which came originally with the 305, 4spd, posi, 4 wheel disc and t-tops.
Pretty much everything I was looking for. I  popped the 305 and put in a 300hp 350,
looks the same and a lot more bang for the buck.
(Yes I kept all the original stuff )
Looked at a turbo car at the time but the $750 rebuilt carb it has was a turn off, half of what
I invested in the 350. If your keeping the car put what you want in it and have fun. If  you bought
it as an investment stick with the Turbo. IMHO
Goodluck,
Chris

[N PRGRES]

If you're just going to yank the motor buy something with little value.  Makes no sense to buy a unmolested car only to pull the original stuff.

[Trans am Oz]

A Pace Car without the Turbo 301 is just another hacked up Pace Car.

No value what so ever.  IMHO

Kev

these forums need a "like" button.

x2 ..now that would be good

[jjr]

 The 301, like most engines, has some design aspects that need to
be understood.

 The secret to the 301 is in understanding what Pontiac originally
set it up for... and really - that answer is low warranty claims, not
power.

 From the factory, this powertain was de-tuned for several reasons,
but today we are free to correct all that.

 The 301 was orginally built as a lightweight, fuel efficient V-8.

 Turbo charging the engine overcame it's intake/head limitiations -
but in designing the turbo they had still other non performance
goals... Fuel mileage and emmissions!

 What they did was to design the package so as to deliver all the
power of the 400 "on demand". In other the words, the Turbo didn't
start enhancing the power output until mid range. Since many assumed
the package should run exactly like the 400's of the previous years,
acceptance waned.

 So what was really not appearant was the low end grunt from larger
displacement Pontiac V-8's.

 Typically, these cars suffered from uninformed owners not
understanding them or their needs and they fell into disrepair.

 Probably the biggest issue was oil condition. In this setup, the
engine oil "also" lubes and cools the turbo which gets real darn
hot. If you didn't get anal about 2-3K mile oil changes, you were
headed for damage. Inside the turbo, motor oil can easily coke
due to the intense heat. But really, the culprit was the lack
of following the instructions to own this car... The one minute
cooldown requirement. You really needed to sit at idle for a
minute or two to flush the turbo with non-superheated engine oil
before shutdown.

 Once the internal Turbo oil passage ways coked with heat destroyed
oil, it really did become a dog, since the Turbo would eat itself
alive in short order from the lack of lube.

 Today, we can bring the boost in sooner and increase the boost
level to either the correct or somewhat increased levels. We also
have much better oils that can live through the much higher heat.

 The popularity of the car has grown a great deal, somewhat aided
by the overdue focus of a group of owners that love them.

 The 301 turbo is a more efficient engine than it's older brothers,
and capable of just as much power, except that the route is less
traveled.

 A 400 powered car gets what single digit fuel mileage, the 301T
like 15, 16 mpg.

 So if anyone decides to try to enjoy one, help and nearly all
the parts are out there.

 Joe
 

[72blackbird]

Joe,
I'd love to see the total cost to build a 400 hp 301T. I've built more than a dozen 400 hp 400's over the past 20 years, and while the cost has gone up due the increase of parts, machine work, and labor, the recipes are proven and result in near bulletproof engines that run on pump gas.

Not all 400's deliver single digit mpg's either- the 406 in my 72 Bird w/ ported no.48s, Holley 750 v/s on a e-performer intake, Hooker comp headers delivered 14-16 mpg for years, so they can be tuned to deliver decent fuel economy and impressive torque. The same engine would put my Bird into the 13.0x's w/ a TH-350, 2500 stall, and a 3.08 on street tires- let's see a 301T do the same thing.

I am impressed with the amount private R and D that's going into making hardcore 301T's, but until I see a 500+ hp 301T build in HPP with the parts list breakdown I will remain a skeptic.

Geno

[N PRGRES]

Joe,
I'd love to see the total cost to build a 400 hp 301T. I've built more than a dozen 400 hp 400's over the past 20 years, and while the cost has gone up due the increase of parts, machine work, and labor, the recipes are proven and result in near bulletproof engines that run on pump gas.

Not all 400's deliver single digit mpg's either- the 406 in my 72 Bird w/ ported no.48s, Holley 750 v/s on a e-performer intake, Hooker comp headers delivered 14-16 mpg for years, so they can be tuned to deliver decent fuel economy and impressive torque. The same engine would put my Bird into the 13.0x's w/ a TH-350, 2500 stall, and a 3.08 on street tires- let's see a 301T do the same thing.

I am impressed with the amount private R and D that's going into making hardcore 301T's, but until I see a 500+ hp 301T build in HPP with the parts list breakdown I will remain a skeptic.

Geno

I don't think the point is to compare the two as equals but to show that he could be happy with the 301 and still keep the car numbers matching

[72blackbird]

It seems like every time someone asks about a TTA the subject of the 301T and it's worthiness as a real Pontiac performance engine comes into question. I personally don't care if TTA owners want to spend their money trying to make a 301T make more hp- I understood the original poster's question and replied in kind. My comments refer to those members talking about the 301T from a technical standpoint.

Geno

[80TAPaceCar]

I will remain a skeptic.

No disrespect intended, but a skeptic will always remain a skeptic no matter what is said or proven.

[hada76]

 The 301, like most engines, has some design aspects that need to
be understood.

 The secret to the 301 is in understanding what Pontiac originally
set it up for... and really - that answer is low warranty claims, not
power.

 From the factory, this powertain was de-tuned for several reasons,
but today we are free to correct all that.

 The 301 was orginally built as a lightweight, fuel efficient V-8.

 Turbo charging the engine overcame it's intake/head limitiations -
but in designing the turbo they had still other non performance
goals... Fuel mileage and emmissions!

 What they did was to design the package so as to deliver all the
power of the 400 "on demand". In other the words, the Turbo didn't
start enhancing the power output until mid range. Since many assumed
the package should run exactly like the 400's of the previous years,
acceptance waned.

 So what was really not appearant was the low end grunt from larger
displacement Pontiac V-8's.

 Typically, these cars suffered from uninformed owners not
understanding them or their needs and they fell into disrepair.

 Probably the biggest issue was oil condition. In this setup, the
engine oil "also" lubes and cools the turbo which gets real darn
hot. If you didn't get anal about 2-3K mile oil changes, you were
headed for damage. Inside the turbo, motor oil can easily coke
due to the intense heat. But really, the culprit was the lack
of following the instructions to own this car... The one minute
cooldown requirement. You really needed to sit at idle for a
minute or two to flush the turbo with non-superheated engine oil
before shutdown.

 Once the internal Turbo oil passage ways coked with heat destroyed
oil, it really did become a dog, since the Turbo would eat itself
alive in short order from the lack of lube.

 Today, we can bring the boost in sooner and increase the boost
level to either the correct or somewhat increased levels. We also
have much better oils that can live through the much higher heat.

 The popularity of the car has grown a great deal, somewhat aided
by the overdue focus of a group of owners that love them.

 The 301 turbo is a more efficient engine than it's older brothers,
and capable of just as much power, except that the route is less
traveled.

 A 400 powered car gets what single digit fuel mileage, the 301T
like 15, 16 mpg.

 So if anyone decides to try to enjoy one, help and nearly all
the parts are out there.

 Joe
 

in other words your saying the turbo cars were too sophisticated (quirky) for the average torque hungry pontiac buyer

[jjr]

 No, those wouldn't be the words I'd choose.

 The Turbo TA's were different... Most folks didn't realize it,
and so an unjust rep came apon it.

 Considering the EPA and CAFE regs that Pontiac was dealing
with, the 301T was engineering brillance.

 Joe

[UnderDog403]

The point of the 301 was NOT to blow the 400-powered Trans Am in the other lane away. It was to deliver adequate performance and decent fuel mileage for a car that had a repuatation of being fast, in a time where fast wasn't in vogue, so to speak. It's all about context. When you look at the 301 in the context of its day, it makes total sence.

A 301 is not the cheapest way to go fast. Not by a long shot. BUT, some of us like making the best with what the factory gave us. Sure, you could throw in a 400. But to me, and some others, it takes away from the nostalgia of the car. Part of the fun of these old cars for me is being taken back to the time period in which these cars were made.

The 301 isn't necessarily some undiscovered speed-demon.  It was misunderstood.

Am I saying that the 301 can easily and cheaply be made to walk all over a 400? No. I am saying that some owners are happy with having a car that looks good, sounds good, and can scoot when it needs to. My father's 1953 Chevy 3100 with a 235 doesn't burn tires, but it is still fun.

I hope I don't come across as rude, as that is not at all my intention.

[jjr]

> but until I see a 500+ hp 301T build in HPP with the parts list breakdown
> I will remain a skeptic.

 I dunno about 500+ hp but...







 and in the next lane for the shoot out... a 455 powered bird.



 Joe

[72blackbird]

I remember reading that track shootout in HPP- very entertaining. On paper the guy w/ the 72 Bird looked like he had a decent setup, but it you read carefully he's undercammed, has an exhaust system that's choking his engine, under geared, and has the wrong tires for the strip. Even with all of that he should have been able to manage mid-low 13's- his times indicate he doesn't know how to load the torque converter, launch, or shift at the right rpm. A race weight of 4400 lbs. also tells me he probably had his toolbox and spare tire in the trunk- rookie mistake.

The guy w/ the 301T, on the other hand, knows what he is doing- race weight down to 3300 lbs., pizza cutters and slicks on, boost at 17 psi so you know he's found the limit and blown a few head gaskets in the process, and set up to run on race gas. There's no mention of the transmission or rear end ratio, but I doubt it's stock.

This is the perfect example of how someone who knows what they're doing can make a 301T get into the 12's, and how a novice w/ a street weapon like a 455 can still not get it right on his own. Most guys who run 461 strokers or 455 and street/strip are down in mid/low 11's, and the one who are setup only for drag run 10's.

Geno