Hitman's Pontiac Trans Am Forum

Trans Am Information => Trans Am Tech => Electrical => Topic started by: lee01 on June 18, 2012, 03:23:02 PM

Title: 4 Relay power window
Post by: lee01 on June 18, 2012, 03:23:02 PM
Hi to all, in 2008 I did with help of many members make a 4 relay system for the weak GM system, and that work pretty well.
The diagram is still on the forum. 
At that time I had thaught about doing a somewhat plug and play relay kit that I could sell for those who would take the easy way :) but I sold my T/A and got into other projects.
Since then I received many email about my system and if there there were ever a ''kit'' offered.

Now i'm more settle and will have time this summer/winter and i'm am testing the water if there would be some member interested in having a kit made.

I would probably provide a complet kit with with relay, wiring and instruction.

Right now I haven't research price or anything like that, I guess price and quality would be the priority.

Let know your thaugh and i'll go from there.

Nick
lee01
Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: blacksheep1 on July 03, 2012, 09:24:28 PM
Yes, Yes and YES!!! I'll be the first in line to buy your kit. I have already bought the relays suggested but have not done anything so I would gladly resell the relays and purchase your kit.
Robin Bailer
Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: medicman on July 14, 2012, 09:12:45 PM
I'm the guy who bought lee 01 t/a. I've been restoring it since 08 and still going at it. I kept the relay set up that came with the car and they do work great. Windows go up and down fast. I'm hoping to finish my car by next year. It's been a complete resto.
Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: Angelo on October 11, 2012, 03:55:18 PM
I've been thinking about the 4 relay setup with the existing relay, it seems redundant to keep the old/original relay once you wire in these 4 new relays.

(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n236/79ws6resto/Powerwindowwiring7lee01.jpg)

Here's my modification, which eliminates the old power window relay completely making the switches work directly from the fuse box ignition feed.

(http://www.modsandrods.tv/wp-content/pics/Powerwindowwiring7lee01-angelo-mod.jpg)

Make sure the red with black wire and the not-used pigtail on your new relays are properly covered to prevent from possibly grounding. You should be able to do this modification without cutting the old relay harness by using blade connectors on a short wire. Just don't forget to cover the exposed red with black wire terminal remaining on the harness.

My only other modification is to include a 30amp fuse to your hot wire that runs from the battery to your 4 new relays.

Feedback/comments please!

Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: OrangeCrush79 on October 15, 2012, 10:20:33 AM
Hi,
    I too am in the process of trying to get my power windows to work right. Since there isn't a plug and play kit yet available to accomplish this, I will try to follow the schematics that are supplied here. It would be a lot easier to see actual photographs as to how to "create" this relay system, where to attach it to and also photos of how you do the wiring. It looks great on paper, but I need to see how it all goes together inside the car.
    Thanks for supplying the updated schematic to this system.       OrangeCrush79
Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: Angelo on October 15, 2012, 10:42:42 AM
Check out these threads:

www.78ta.com/HTAF/index.php?topic=38033
www.78ta.com/HTAF/index.php?topic=8769

I'm putting mine in the same place as "Eagle 1" did, under the center console map pocket. I'm replacing the map pocket with Randy's center console gauge pod (http://www.78ta.com/HTAF/index.php?topic=13660.0) as well.

Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: blacksheep1 on November 08, 2012, 09:48:29 PM
Hey Lee, what do you think? Are you going to start make these plug and play units?
Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: TAKID455 on November 09, 2012, 09:30:54 AM
Really not hard to do. Being most of it is custom to the car, not sure how a suitable 'package' kit would work out. Just get some relays, terminals and cut & crimp away.  I usually place my relays under the console.
Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: Angelo on November 09, 2012, 10:02:42 AM
I agree with TAKID455, though someone could put together a "requires assembly" kit, it would essentially contain some 12 and 14 gauge wire, an inline 30A fuse and 4 bosch style relays with pigtails, preferably lockable pigtails. Here's a link to the relays and pigtails I got this summer: http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-PACK-30-40-AMP-RELAY-HARNESS-SPDT-12V-BOSCH-STYLE-S-SHIPS-FREE-FAST-FROM-USA-/390461017170?pt=US_Relays_Sensors&hash=item5ae94a4c52&vxp=mtr Note the pigtails lock together, keeps things nice and tidy.

If you have money to spend, Painless sells a power window and door lock kit for 70-81 firebird/camaro #30715 that includes 4 relays: 30715 Manual (http://www.painlessperformance.com/Manuals/30715.pdf), available at Summit Racing (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/prf-30715/)

But as TAKID455 said, everything is based on what you want to do. For example, some folks mounted their relays under the glove box, others under the center console. An already assembled kit would make that decision for you. Though my relays will be under the center console, there could be a perfectly good reason not to put them there, like if you had a manual transmission maybe. I'm also adding a fuse panel to my car in case I want to add additional accessories like a CB or an amp. I got a 4 fuse block (http://www.jegs.com/i/Dorman+Products/326/85668/10002/-1) (each fuse can handle up to 30 amps), 10 gauge wire to run from the new fuse box to the battery, and a battery side post extender (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002EXMFY/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00) to attach my 10 gauge wire to the positive battery terminal. Once you dig into it, you'll most likely come up with your own preference to wire everything.
Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: lee01 on November 09, 2012, 02:46:48 PM
I haven't had time yet guys :( 
Life is busier then ever. Soccer coach, karate kid too lol, 71 Duster restoration, work work!

But once I get into it, I try to figure out something simple with most stuff included like relays, wiring, fuse, pigtail.

The relay placement will be a personal preference.
But most have a console and its easy to take out and lot of room to put the relay, easy to work so....I will see, winter is comming quickly and I will have more time during that season.   
Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: H8Rain on December 17, 2012, 04:34:20 PM
Hi all.   

Per the post above, has anyone confirmed that it is ok to remove the existing (original) relay from the mix, or does it really not make any difference?  Unless there is a good reason to remove it I'd rather skip an un-necessary step. 

Also, I have read that the existing\original wiring going from the switch to the motors (which would now be going from the new relays to the motors) should be upgraded to a heavier gauge (since there is much more current running through this wire and driving the windows).  Is that necessary or can the original wiring handle the new load ok?

And one more question (please).  What is the preferred way to splice the wires?  For example, the new power wire that comes directly from the battery to the new relays, I'll need to split that to each of the 4 new relays, correct?  How do you recommend I make those splices..... solder or barrel crimps or something other?

Thanks so much!
Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: Angelo on December 17, 2012, 05:03:55 PM
If you add 4 new relays as designed above, that original older relay is redundant. My opinion leaving it would not harm anything, but an electrician would tell you to yank it out because someday if you do have a problem it could be a cause, where otherwise it would not.

The 14 gauge wire from your new relays to each power window motor should be sufficient. There's a formula printed on most boxes of wire what gauge is appropriate for what amperage and distance. The distance from your new relays to your motors will be less than 4 feet, so it should not be an issue. The only exception is if the wiring itself has been damaged in anyway, then you should replace it. Here are some sites with charts so you can get an idea what's happening: http://www.crutchfield.com/S-uhH9GJZd4ma/learn/learningcenter/car/cable_gauge_chart.html and http://www.rallylights.com/hella/SensibleWiring.aspx Basically the longer the distance of the wire then the thicker the wire needs to be to handle the amperage.

For reference, I could not get a definite answer but I believe each power window motor pulls between 12-18 amps.

The new wire feeding the relays should be 10 gauge in my opinion, though looking at the chart I have here as long as the run is under 4' then 12 gauge should work (12 gauge is what the factory used)  If you run 12 gauge to the relays though, you could introduce the same problem the factory wiring had when both windows are rolling up/down at the same time, where they then go slower competing for the amperage.

Technically the line coming from the battery was a generalization, you should (though most don't do this) wire the lead to the same place where the factory wires the other wiring to as well, and that is determined by which motor is in your car. I can only speak for a Pontiac motor, in that case the new wire should be added to the back of the alternator using a ring connector. You should also include a fusible link 9" long between your new run to this connection at the alternator, the fusible link is important, again it's what the factory designed. Everything else should be soldered with wire heat shrink, or crimp-able heat shrink butt connectors. I also added insulated spade connectors between the window wiring and relays, that way I can take out the center console with the relays and switches just by unplugging those spade connectors. You can knock yourself out with creativity there. Also, this is just my opinion, you could still wire the window relay directly to the battery post, I see guys who add amps and other stereo equipment do that all the time. Just remember that you need a fuse somewhere in there, otherwise things could get damaged.
Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: Grand73Am on December 19, 2012, 12:29:28 AM
The original relay is not a relay in the usual sense of the purpose of a relay. It only makes it so you have to turn the ignition key on for the windows to work. If you remove the relay and connect the switch wire to a constant power source, the windows work without the key. I bypassed my bad original relay so I can operate the windows without needing to turn the ignition switch on, and been doing so for 6 years and counting. Cars from the 60's and older were like that, and I prefer it that way  :) .
Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: Angelo on December 19, 2012, 09:51:05 AM
All depends which wire you replace the old relay with. If you wire the switching power to the new relays from a pink wire under the dash (see my version of the diagram), then the new relays will only work when the key is in the ignition/start mode. They will not work when in the off/acc position since no power will be at the switches to activate the relays.

If you wire the switching power to the red wire from the old relay, or an orange wire under the dash, or wire it directly to the battery, then yes you can roll the windows up/down even without the key in the ignition. I would not wire your car this way if concerned about security, all one would need to do is use a coat hanger under your window to press the power window button to get into the car.
Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: H8Rain on December 19, 2012, 09:59:05 AM
Thanks for the information.    So could I set up the power to the new relays using a fused distribution block, like you might get from a stereo shop if you were running multiple amps?   

Something like this......

(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k125/H8-Rain/DistributionBlock_zps30923146.jpg)

Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: H8Rain on December 19, 2012, 10:11:58 AM
Sorry.... nevermind.... I read angelo's post above and see that you can use a fused distribution block.

But then my only question is... if I use a fused distribution block, does the power wire coming from the battery (or back of the alternator) still need to be fused?  I'm guessing it does not but want to be sure.

Thanks!!!!!
Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: Angelo on December 19, 2012, 10:31:25 AM
Yea that would work better than the $4 fuse block I got (http://www.jegs.com/i/Dorman+Products/326/85668/10002/-1). If you are running stereo amps I would definitely use what you have pictured, I'm not 100% confident in the $4 fuse block I got handling the 30 amps.
Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: Angelo on December 19, 2012, 10:44:33 AM
Stereo guys run wire directly to the battery don't add fusible links to them. But if you install it like the factory at the alternator, I'm pretty sure you need a fusible link there, it serves a different function. I still don't have my head wrapped around the difference between a fusible link in the engine compartment and regular fuses, but I read enough to know fusible links prevent fires but allow for random amp surges like you get when you first turn on an AC motor (Fan or power window), where a regular blade fuse will blow once the amps surpasses a specific amount. fuses protect specific items, fusible links protect the system, as I understand it.

BTW I got these battery side post studs (http://www.amazon.com/Raptor-GBPA1S-Positive-Battery-Extender/dp/B0002EXMFY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1355931499&sr=8-2&keywords=GM+side+terminal), you can use 5/16" ring connectors on them to connect additional power to. If I decide to wire my window relays to the battery, that's what I'm using. Otherwise I'll have it wired to the alternator like the factory designed with a fusible link. I'm still on the fence which way to go myself and will decide when I get to that point. As of today though I'm going the factory route, but I still have some car stereo buddies that may convince me otherwise. I'm using the studs for now for my trickle charger.
Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: pancho400cid on December 19, 2012, 07:39:47 PM
Wow! - such great info in this thread!  Thanks to all.  I plan to do this to my brown 78 - which has power windows from the factory but they were both inoperative before I started on the car. 

It looks to me like the pin-outs on the aftermarket relays are:

   86 - coil pos
   85 - coil neg
   30 - Common
   87a - Normally Closed
   87 - Normally Open

My question - is  anyone sure of the pin-out on the factory relay?  Is the pink wire for the coil?  Does the coil ground through a mounting bolt or something?

Also - on fuses / maxifuses / fusible link question I also could not find a great clear answer on the internet - just a lot of guys like us asking the same questions.  I have witnessed a fusible link being blown and it is rather exciting - definitely not something you would want to happen inside the car - better in the engine bay.
   
Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: Angelo on December 19, 2012, 08:30:11 PM
The factory relays are not BOSCH style, so those pins you have referenced don't mean much in that case. BOSCH relays can be used in a number of situations, most cases one of the pins is not used. I think now days it's cheaper to use universal relays then make relays for specific tasks.

GM grounded the relays in some cases, so if you don't see a black wire and it's down to 3-4 wires to the relay, chances are it's already grounded to the chassis in some way.

For the Power Window factory relay (not considering the new relay setup), the relay is grounded so no black wire. The red wire from the fuse box is what is providing the power for the window motor, the pink wire tells the relay when to open or close. The other red wire (with white stripe) goes from the relay to the switches. Pink is normally only hot when the key is in ignition/start mode. If the car is in ignition mode, then the relay opens and allows the current from the red wire to continue to the window switches.
Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: pancho400cid on December 19, 2012, 08:50:04 PM
OK.... cool...
Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: Angelo on December 19, 2012, 08:55:24 PM
Yes!
Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: H8Rain on December 20, 2012, 08:57:51 AM
I also found this link helpful.  I like to learn as much as possible about new things....

www.mp3car.com/the-faq-emporium/117895-faq-relays-how-they-work-and-how-to-wire-it-up.html



Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: ta78w72 on December 28, 2012, 03:26:46 PM
Lee01 didn't develop that circuit, I did.  In or around 2007, I read a post at another forum about a problem with the power windows.  I took inspiration from that post and develop a schematic on an excel document.  What Lee01 did was to take my schematic and put it on another format to make it easier to read.  To say he developed the circuit with many others is just plain dishonest.

I decided to keep the original relay because I like to maintain as much of the originality of the system as possible.  You could remove the relay with no problem...but as GrandAm said, it would work with or without the key on.  The original system worked only with the key on...which can be irritating so I see why he changed it.  The relay grounds to the steering column via the fastener. 

I also had a redundant ground from the motor fasteners to somewhere suitable in the cabin.  I've since rethought that after seeing what 4speed did.  He simply grounded the door rather than try to run a ground from the power window motor.  That make more sense to me.

Well, I developed that circuit years ago and creative people need to do new things.  I've since developed a step by step process for adding an AUX port to the Delco AM/FM cassettes, 8-tracks, and AM/FM stereo's from 1978 through 1987.  Although it's a cable mount solution, I do have parts ordered that may solve the mechanical issue of installing a port on the bezel itself.  But the electrical is sorted out and it works.  And, it doesn't permanently destroy or alter any part of the radio.  That process is documented on another trans am forum.
Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: Angelo on December 28, 2012, 04:27:52 PM
 ta78w72, I was unaware you designed this originally. So sorry, I'll update my replies when I get time this weekend so you get credit where credit is due


Do you mind sharing the link to the other forum about the radio wiring, I'd love to read about it.

Thanks for coming up with this relay setup!
Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: Angelo on December 28, 2012, 11:31:45 PM
I found the posting on that forum, it's awesome! If I ever were to install a factory radio, an AUX jack is definitely the way to go. It be quite easy to plugin a bluetooth receiver into it and keep it completely hidden under the dash or in the glove box.
Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: ta78w72 on December 30, 2012, 11:44:55 AM
If you're eliminating the relay, you might as well power the new relays with the orange/black stripe wire.  That circuit is already protected.
Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: Angelo on December 31, 2012, 08:10:30 AM
I believe the orange and black wire is 14 gauge though. Even if its 12 gauge, 10 gauge to the relays is a big improvement, I believe it will handle 50 amps within 4 feet.

The kit Painless sells with its 4 relay "improvement" I believe uses the existing wiring. I'll look at their instructions at lunch.
Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: Angelo on December 31, 2012, 08:25:47 AM
The Painless 30715 kit wires directly into the fuse block. Fuse block has one 12 gauge and one 14 gauge wire feeding it power from the alternator. So the red and black wire would be just as good as what the Painless engineers designed.
Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: lee01 on January 03, 2013, 03:44:42 PM
Hi, i have done a little DIY on the relay setup.

I won't make any kits per say, I give the recipe on what to buy and all the info in this post:
http://www.78ta.com/HTAF/index.php?topic=40530.new#new
Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: H8Rain on January 09, 2013, 06:39:14 PM
(http://www.modsandrods.tv/wp-content/pics/Powerwindowwiring7lee01-angelo-mod.jpg)

Sorry... i have yet another question.  If I eliminate the original relay as shown above, instead of taping off the red wire (or orange I think it may be) since that is the wire that's always hot, can that wire be used to provide power to the 4 new relays? I'd then still change the fuse out to a 30amp as originally suggested.

I was reading the Painless instructions (just for some reference) and it seems like their set up works kinda like what I'm thinking?

What do you think?
Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: Angelo on January 09, 2013, 07:14:28 PM
Red with black stripe (when viewed in the Image it looks blurry giving it an orange appearance) wire is the positive wire that by factory design powers the window motors, the pink wire powers the relays. Then relays do not need much electricity, the window motors do, hence the difference. Just like the painless kit, it plugs into the fuse block with a 30 amp breaker. So if you want you could use that (forgoing some of the benefit of wiring it directly). When I'm at a computer i'll list the 6 scenarios.
Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: Ag77T/A on January 09, 2013, 07:21:34 PM
If you're eliminating the relay, you might as well power the new relays with the orange/black stripe wire.  That circuit is already protected.

ta78w72 seems to think it would work fine. You could always try it and see if it performs ok.  IMHO you would get better performance with a heaver gauge wired direct to the battery but I always have a tendency to over engineer wiring.  ;)
Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: Angelo on January 11, 2013, 12:49:44 PM
This is a rather large post, trying to decipher everything. I'm trying my best to give credit where appropriate as well as explain the differences of the options that have been discussed.

Refer to this page to understand what gauge wire you need for the amps and wire length: http://www.offroaders.com/tech/12-volt-wire-gauge-amps.htm This chart explains why certain wire gauges are used/recommended.

The gauge wire used and the fact that the current for the motors goes through the switches is the main reason we're having this discussion.

Scenarios of wiring power windows with key differences listed

Factory - Problematic as we all know.


Painless Kit: Improvement on factory wiring adding 4 relays (like what ta78w72 / lee01 have discussed/documented)


ta78w72  Design: A design like the Painless 4 relay setup designed for DIY folks.


lee01 Design: A readable schematic version of what ta78w72 designed, with input from the forum. (For reference, this is the thread where Lee put together his diagram with help from ta78w72 and others others: http://www.78ta.com/HTAF/index.php?topic=8202.0) This design is fully documented here: http://www.78ta.com/HTAF/index.php?topic=40530.0

(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n236/79ws6resto/Powerwindowwiring7lee01.jpg)


I believe the main difference between lee01 and ta78w72 is their opinion on where the power source comes from (direct from battery vs from fuse box).

angelo Design: That's me! Removes old relay. Not in the image is my recommendation on adding a fusible link if wired to the alternator.

(http://www.modsandrods.tv/wp-content/pics/Powerwindowwiring7lee01-angelo-mod.jpg)

All I did was recommend that the old relay is no longer needed, some folks agreed on my thought so I modified the drawing as such. I also recommend if running from the alternator to include a fusible link (engine side) in addition to a 30 amp fuse. I also advocate for 12 gauge wire (rather than 14) from the battery or alternator to the new relays. After the relays I don't see a problem with 14 gauge wire as the distance from the relays to each window motor is below the 7 foot maximum per the chart linked above. Providing 12 gauge to the relays should provide enough power that both windows can roll up/down. Otherwise you will have the situation when you do both windows at the same time that they slow down. If you do use 12 gauge wire, I highly recommend wiring it directly either from the battery or alternator, the fuse box was not designed to run 12 gauge wire out of the box, introducing a thicker gauge could cause the box to be a hot spot in the wiring.

Also, the Painless setup does not have the original relay, only 4 relays, 1 for each window each direction. So my edit would be the closest to the Painless design.


My drawing is to demonstrate that the old relay is not necessary. If you go this route, I would recommend tapping the wires directly into the fuse box (see other notes below) rather than hacking up the old relay wiring.

Recap
As far as 4 relays and adding ground wires to the doors are concerned, that is the consensus. Providing power to the relays and to the switches though is what is different. Here's a list of possibilities.

Window motor power:

Power to window switches to turn relays on/off:


Other notes

From this specific posting 78ta included a picture (linked below) of the fuse box with the power window motor power, power window relay power, and power door lock power. (reference: http://www.78ta.com/HTAF/index.php?topic=8202.msg86153#msg86153)
(http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii295/w70442/TAC/power%20windows%20and%20locks/77fuse.jpg)

My Thoughts
I'm just trying to clear up the confusion since there are many ways to power the windows, I believe this outline lists the differences and a reader can decide on their own which is best for their ride.

I'm not completely sold yet on connecting the power to the alternator, but that's what the factory would most likely do. When I get the motor installed I will wire my windows that way with a fusible link and report back if that way works better or not.

I think if the factory used today's standards, they would have the 4 relays wired with 14 gauge wire to the fuse box. If the power windows were added by a professional shop, I think the 12 gauge between the battery to the relays would be used so the windows would have plenty of power to both work as fast at the same time.
Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: H8Rain on January 11, 2013, 03:53:09 PM
Very nicely done!  Thanks so much!
Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: Aus78Formula on June 23, 2014, 06:18:03 AM
If anyone needs convincing that rewiring the old window switch and motors with relays is the way to go, here's 2 quick videos I just took of mine which was based on the diagram drawn up in the posts above.

http://s72.photobucket.com/user/Aus78Formula/media/Firebirdpowerwindowsenginerunning_zpsf0c1ad47.mp4.html

http://s72.photobucket.com/user/Aus78Formula/media/Firebirdpowerwindowsnoengine_zpsf4574b7f.mp4.html
Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: Angelo on June 23, 2014, 08:27:13 AM
Nice! I noticed with my relays they are even smoother with the engine running. Battery vs alternator.
Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: ta78w72 on January 31, 2015, 11:55:33 AM
The four relay system isn't a panacea for everything that ails your power window system.  I posted a thread at Unitedf-body.com that goes over ALL the problems with the power window system.  If you simply install the four relay system, you may still experience slow windows.

I tapped off the orange/black stripe wire for power and it works just fine.  I also used 12 gauge wire.  The factory used 14 or smaller.  I ran new wires from the relay to the window motor.  I used the existing switch harness to power the switch (pink wire) and the other four wires to trip the relay's.  I maintained the factory relay.

I replaced the motors.  And, I did a lot of other fixes.  My windows work better than when the car rolled off the factory floor.  The windows literally fly up and down.

By the way, back in 2006, I thought it would be a good idea to run a ground from one of the motor bolts to inside the cabin.  That's not necessary.  That circuit has plenty of ground without running an additional wire.
Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: Angelo on January 31, 2015, 12:37:30 PM
What is the direct link to your thread?
Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: ta78w72 on January 31, 2015, 01:37:32 PM
A direct link won't work for everyone because you've got to be registered to read the forum.  I suggested to Roger that he open the forum like Brett does here, or at least open the Technical Library.  Here's the link though.  I'm still working on it.  But the last part that's unfinished is the four relay wiring which is sort of covered here.  I did it a little different, but there are lots of ways to do the wiring.....all good.  I choose the simplest way for me.

http://unitedf-body.com/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=8895.0
Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: Angelo on February 01, 2015, 04:37:58 PM
Tell Roger if he wants to do the community and his web site a service he would make the pages public. My only guess is he's password protected everything because of the server resources needed for search systems like Google to index the site. If you take the time to get quality web hosting, the indexing website load is not a problem and will help drive site membership.

I personally would NOT recommend posting your knowledge on private sites. You want to become an authority on what you talk about, you want what you wrote to be discovered by others searching for the same problem, or you want what ever you write to be accessible by you and others as time goes on, etc... To achieve that you want your knowledge posted on web sites that Google indexes. Your time and energy of everything you wrote on a private site is now at the mercy of whom ever runs the private site. What if the web site shuts down or the data is lost? Any public site like this one is constantly indexed by search engines and copies archived to sites like archive.org, your time sharing your knowledge here will not be lost regardless. Just my 2 cents.
Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: Grand73Am on February 01, 2015, 05:18:22 PM
I'm a registered member over there, so I was able to log in and see it. It's an excellent tutorial on working on the power windows and associated parts. I picked up a few good tips from it. Thanks!
Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: Angelo on February 02, 2015, 11:20:44 AM
I didn't mean to seem so harsh, sorry.
Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: ta78w72 on February 02, 2015, 12:54:10 PM
I'm a registered member over there, so I was able to log in and see it. It's an excellent tutorial on working on the power windows and associated parts. I picked up a few good tips from it. Thanks!

Thanks!  Coming from you that's quite a compliment.  I appreciate it.  I'm still working on that thread.  It will be another week before I'm through.

As far as the private status of that site, I agree that parts of it should be open.  Roger is concerned because there has been a lot of strange activity from China and Russia trying to enter the site.  That's why he screens who comes on and requires people to be registered.  He uses Go Daddy so I think the data is safe.  I can't remember that site ever being down.  But I do remember the disasters Trans Am Country had.   I think they lost everything twice.
Title: Re: 4 Relay power window
Post by: Angelo on February 02, 2015, 01:23:30 PM
Tell Roger about a service called cloudflare. The free version will minimally protect the site but the $20/month version you can literally block countries.