Author Topic: 301 Web Site  (Read 4619 times)

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Offline jjr

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« on: January 27, 2007, 12:38:05 PM »
This is a duplicate posting from TAC, but since there is some serious
talent here as well...
Hello all,

Some of you might have seen a post of mine here and there,
if not - I'm one of those "turbo guys" You know that odd bunch
that won't chuck their 301's... <grin>

Anyway, I've been playing with the idea of putting up a real
no-kidding 301 web site that will deal with the specifics of this
engine. Also definitely needed is a comparison between the
80 and 81 turbo applications.

There is a lot of misunderstanding about this engine and there
are more and more folks who want to keep it like it was (like me) and
maybe get all they can out of it.

So what do you think will serve this purpose best? A separate web
site or attached to something else?

I plan on getting pretty detailed on these engines and will be inviting
those who have something to share as well.

So I'm open to suggestions AND opinions...

Joe R
1979 10th Aniv 400/4spd
1980 Black SE 301NA
1980 Indy Turbo Pace 301T
1981 Turbo 301T
1981 Black SE 301T
1981 Daytona Pace 301T
www.301garage.com

Offline Rick

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« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2007, 01:53:42 PM »
Joe, I think it's great that somebody is willing to undertake such an endeavor.  The knowledge base for the 301s is just so small, and likely even smaller for the 301T.

As far as a separate web site, or attached to something else -- dunno.  Being attached to 78TA or TAC would certainly make it easier to find and would result in greater participation, which in turn would seve to boost the knowledge base as more people joined in.  What I don't know is if Brett or Mr. B would sign up for possibly *more* headaches.  I think both of them have been ready to shoot a server at least once in the past couple of weeks. :)

Offline shooby

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« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2007, 05:30:10 PM »
Joe,

I think it is a great idea as well.  I am one of those "keepers"  I have an 80 plane jane TA with the original 301 and 78,000 miles.  More people turn up their noses at a 301, but I think the total original package is worth more than a few extra H.P.

Offline John Witzke

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« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2007, 02:04:36 PM »
Check out my W72 page on this site.  It will give you some ideas with your own 301 project.  My page is a result of several years worth a research and is ongoing.
John Witzke

Offline jjr

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« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2007, 08:14:54 PM »
Thanks John,

 I will.

 Joe R
1979 10th Aniv 400/4spd
1980 Black SE 301NA
1980 Indy Turbo Pace 301T
1981 Turbo 301T
1981 Black SE 301T
1981 Daytona Pace 301T
www.301garage.com

Offline milly

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« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2007, 12:58:42 AM »
Just a thought, but the 265 should be included also. :wink:
John
1981 Trans Am
1996 Firebird

Central Illinois Firebirds
Ohio Firebirds

Offline FRITZ

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« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2007, 10:46:08 AM »
Joe & John--

I think a detailed page on the 301T would be fantastic!  Regardless of what engine your car was born with, if you're a true Trans Am lover, you'll respect the engine that the car came with for what it is, not for what it should have been.  The 301 is a true Pontiac Trans Am engine and deserves the same knowledge base as the infamous 455 and venerable 400.  For those of us who are interested in preserving the 2nd Gen TA in all of it's respective glories, I think the 301T needs to receive the same attention as the rest!

Having said all that, I'm just getting ready to rebuild my original #'s matching 301T in my '80 pace car and need all the info I can get!  Please get started and let me know if I can be of any help.  I have the spec sheets from PHS if needed but have no engine rebuilding experience.

Thanks
Fritz
80 INDY TA RESTORATION IN PROGRESS

Offline Joker (§ir£Ğragon)

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« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2007, 07:32:31 PM »
Quote from: "FRITZ"
Joe & John--

I think a detailed page on the 301T would be fantastic!  Regardless of what engine your car was born with, if you're a true Trans Am lover, you'll respect the engine that the car came with for what it is, not for what it should have been.  The 301 is a true Pontiac Trans Am engine and deserves the same knowledge base as the infamous 455 and venerable 400.  For those of us who are interested in preserving the 2nd Gen TA in all of it's respective glories, I think the 301T needs to receive the same attention as the rest!


Notice he said that without mentioning the non-Pontiac designed, Trans Am engines. :lol:

I think it's a great idea. I'm very interested in turbo V-8 info, and I am also thinking about doing a similar page for one of those non-Pontiac engines myself. So it will be nice to see how yours progresses and maybe we can help each other work out bugs.
Larry


Offline FRITZ

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« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2007, 08:57:01 AM »
Sorry Sir!  No slight intended!  The point I was making is that ALL of the engines that were put in TAs by Pontiac are important to the restoration process.  The 301T has always been at the bottom of everyones list of desirable engines (of the 5 TAs I've owned, this is my 1st 301).  But the fact is that it is a part of the 2nd Gen family of TAs and the ONLY engine available in the '80 and '81 pace cars.  If one wants to restore one of these cars to factory original - which is the right thing to do with a limited edition car - then the 301 must be restored as well.  Plus, with today's gas prices, the 301 is a lot easier on the wallet!
80 INDY TA RESTORATION IN PROGRESS

Offline jjr

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Update
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2007, 12:36:28 PM »
Well I decided... I'm doing it.

 Today I ordered the provisioning and a
domain name. I have already begun the outlines
and lined up some of the reference material.

 My goal is to cover the Pontiac 301 design
in all of it's various forms, including
the 265 little brother.

 I want to cover in detail both stock and
modified forms.

 I've ordered plenty of space with the ability
for lots more to facilitate plenty of graphics.

 I'd like to get contributions of setups
from anyone who has tweaked this engine. They
can certainly have the credit and their own page
if desired.

 The site will be automatically backed up
on regular basis both by the hosting service
and myself. After sufficient material is
available I'm gonna put it on CD and make
it available to those wanting it. This
will ensure the information survives.

 Ok, so I'm working on it now - I hope
no one expects a 300 page beauty in a weeks
time... <grin>

 Stand by for progress reports.

 Joe R
1979 10th Aniv 400/4spd
1980 Black SE 301NA
1980 Indy Turbo Pace 301T
1981 Turbo 301T
1981 Black SE 301T
1981 Daytona Pace 301T
www.301garage.com

Offline Rick

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« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2007, 12:55:58 PM »
Keep us posted.  Looking forward to progress reports! :lol:

Offline Joker (§ir£Ğragon)

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« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2007, 06:14:35 PM »
Quote from: "FRITZ"
Sorry Sir!  No slight intended!  The point I was making is that ALL of the engines that were put in TAs by Pontiac are important to the restoration process.  The 301T has always been at the bottom of everyones list of desirable engines (of the 5 TAs I've owned, this is my 1st 301).  But the fact is that it is a part of the 2nd Gen family of TAs and the ONLY engine available in the '80 and '81 pace cars.  If one wants to restore one of these cars to factory original - which is the right thing to do with a limited edition car - then the 301 must be restored as well.  Plus, with today's gas prices, the 301 is a lot easier on the wallet!


Oh I know. I'm just messin with ya.

Being a fan of the Olds engines I see the same thing to a lesser extent. So I know exactly where you're comeing from.
Larry


Offline speedshopmike

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« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2007, 10:39:47 AM »
will it be called anchors.com?? :shock:
just messin' with you!
there's a stock class racer over on PY named lynn who's into them and planning on class-racing a turbo 301.
might wanna check in with him for useful info
good luck
-mike
Rockville speed & custom

Offline jjr

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Re: 301 Web Site
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2007, 09:05:44 PM »

 An excerp from the "soon" to be website...

The birth of the 301...

Sometimes it's hard to imagine how things came to be, especially if it's been some 30 years ago.

Before we get started about the birth of the 301, we need to touch on a minor detail...

The engine is actually closer to 302 cubic inch displacement.. Marketing folks of the time did not want to call it a 302 for obvious reasons.

Ok, so why did the 301 Pontiac V-8 come to life?

Two main related reasons really: Fuel Economy and Emissions.

A real oil crisis began late in 1973 when OAPEC members decided that they would no longer ship their oil to the nations that had supported Israel in the Yom Kippur War. This became known as the Arab oil embargo. Incidentally, the U.S. did support Israel in that War and so was included in the embargo.

Around the same time; OPEC members all agreed to raise world oil prices.

These events moved the U.S. Congress to pass the Energy Policy Conservation Act (EPCA), which established corporate average fuel efficiency (CAFE) standards for passenger cars and light trucks sold in the United States. The goal was to double our fuel economy by 1985 and to reduce our dependence on foreign oil.

Year Price

1960 .31
1965 .31
1970 .35
1975 .53
1980 1.13
1985 1.19

CAFE Mileage Standards (Passenger Cars)

Cars Avg
1975 no data yet
1976 no data yet
1977 no data yet
1978 18.0 ****
1979 19.0 20.1
1980 20.0 23.1
1981 22.0 24.6

So, not only was the consumer interested in fuel economy ($$$) - the government was forcing the issue on Auto makers. GM's upper management certainly had decisions to make... How long
could they live with the inefficient performance V-8 engines of the era.

As if this wasn't enough to endanger performance, there was another growing problem that had already impacting Auto Makers...

The Clean Air Act (1970). Which gave birth to the famous: Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)

This called for 90 percent reductions in automotive emissions. New cars would meet a 0.41 gram per mile HC standard and a 3.4 grams per mile CO standard by 1975 and NOx emissions must be reduced to 0.4 gram per mile by 1976 (Ended up 1977).

All of this was coming together at about the same time and Auto makers were scrambling to comply with all of the new Government regulations for their automobiles.

In 1974 the Auto makers persuaded Congress to push off the HC and CO standards until 1978... Auto makers certainly had their hands full. 1974 was also the adoption of the Energy Policy Conservation Act and CAFE (as mentioned above).

In 1977 Auto makers got Congress to amend it's Clean Air Act, and got
the HC standard delayed until 1980, the CO standard delayed until 1981, and the NOx standard relaxed and delayed until 1981. Tough times for the industry.

So what exactly was the problem? Well, in the case of Pontiac, it's engines were all based on a 1955 design. While these were great designs, they dated before all of the new government regulations. Cars in the 50's and 60's were large, heavy and gas was cheap.

Engineers were faced with quite a problem... How do you make a 20 year old design work in light of all the new regulations imposed by the government, AND by a deadline already stretched too many times.

What they did; is in fact the birth of the Pontiac 301 V-8 Engine.

Before we get into how they did it, we need to acknowledge that those clever folks did in fact do it, and meet each and every standard of the Clean Air Act for the 1981 model year. (computer control)

And they did it with a genuine Pontiac engineered and manufactured V-8 engine.

Ok, so  lets look at how they did it...

Since time was a factor, a completely new design, and the time for tooling up would be nearly out of the question.

So they set out to build a downsized, reduced in weight, Pontiac V-8 on the original tooling that was used for the 350 Pontiac engine. This meant that certain primary dimensions on the new engine would remain the same as the old Pontiac 350.

This included spacing between cylinder bores, cylinder head bolt pattern, and the distance between the crankshaft and cam centerlines.

Ok, so now we've introduced some limitations. Utilizing existing tooling means the dimensions of this engine will be longer and wider than really needed...

The first thought was to really cut down the deck height, then they could use shorter connecting rods. This was thwarted by another project, the new 151 cu. in. 4 cylinder they were setting up at the same time. They decided to use the same pistons and rods in both the 151 and 301, so for all intents and purposes the 151 is half of a 301! (er, ah 302 as previously mentioned). Finally, they were able to bring down the deck height about an inch, and that would help.

Some weight savings were found in decreasing the thickness of the casting walls, bringing them down to either 1/8" or 3/16". This would provide adequate structural strength under "normal" use. Higher output versions were not in their immediate plans.

Another trick was the use of a single plane intake manifold, this casting was lighter than the traditional two plane design.

The crankshaft was put on a diet as well, they eliminated the center counterweights using only one at each end. Although many have been skeptical of this approach, this crank is fully counterweighted. What hasn't been understood is that this crank is balanced on the ends, NOT along it's length! Maybe not traditional, but 24 lbs lighter. Two things to note here:

One, the balancer AND flywheel are specific to this engine and constitute part of the mass for balance (don't use anything else). Two, the whole thing is setup to work up to 4,500 rpm.

 Next, the block's lifter gallery webbing was made lighter than earlier engines.

 As far as heads, the center intake ports were combined or siamesed eliminating some casting walls internally. They also intentionally decreased the size of the port passages in order to get high mixture velocities. This served to eliminate fuel-air distribution problems in the siamesed ports. They flow tested and measured the exhaust gas temps at each cylinder and achieved quite even mixtures at all engine speeds.

Well, how did they do?

Let's see:

Block - 301 (126 lbs) 350 (187lbs)
Heads - 301 ( 94 lbs) 350 (110lbs)
Intake - 301 ( 24 lbs) 350 ( 43lbs)
Crank - 301 ( 42 lbs) 350 ( 66lbs)

Not bad at all.

So the original engine debuted in the 1977 models, it had  8.2-1 compression, a mild cam, and was equipped with a 200 cfm Rochester DualJet. This equated to 135 horsepower at 4,000 rpm. It was intended for intermediate-sized conservative passenger cars. It's niche was that of a very smooth, economical engine. The mileage was even better than hoped. Pontiac engineers had a winner.

Then... management decided to use it in heaver sedans and wagons, and a 150 horse 4 bbl version was developed. The Pontiac 301 had begun replacing the less efficient larger Pontiac 350's and 400's. It was all about fuel economy. The 301 would  eventually be used by all of the GM divisions except for Cadillac.

The Pontiac 455 ended in 1976, the 350 in 1977, the 400 in 1978 (stockpiled 400s were used in 1979),

all due to tightening government regulation and unavoidable business necessity. This left the amazing Pontiac 301, the last of the tribe.

So - that's how it all started, the 301 was born of solid Pontiac heritage and outstanding engineering to meet and exceed the needs of the day. So, (in my mind) this engine should definitely occupy an honorable place in Pontiac history.

 Joe R
1979 10th Aniv 400/4spd
1980 Black SE 301NA
1980 Indy Turbo Pace 301T
1981 Turbo 301T
1981 Black SE 301T
1981 Daytona Pace 301T
www.301garage.com

Offline Rick

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Re: 301 Web Site
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2007, 10:18:27 PM »
Joe, IIRC the 301 was also one of the first engines to make use near-exclusive use of CNC machining equipment rather than hand-machining, which is the way a lot of the previous generation Pontiacs were made.  This was intended to cut labor costs for the engine.  On the first go there were bugs in some of the CNC programs and oil galleys were not completely drilled out.  Assembly lube allowed them to run long enough for the factory QC checks and for them to be loaded onto transports, but when customers picked them up the engine would start puking rods a few miles down the road.  This only happened to the first few cars delivered to customers and the problems were quickly fixed at the factory, but it started the notion that the 301 was an unreliable or inferior engine and that didn't help its repuation.