Author Topic: 6.6 liter vs 6.6 t/a  (Read 17608 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline flashno1

  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18
  • Gold Bandit
  • Referrals: 0
Re: 6.6 liter vs 6.6 t/a
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2011, 04:01:23 AM »
I quoted John wrong, he said there was no part number for the 6.6 liter decal, not the TA 6.6 decal which I assume could be ordered. The reason I said that it had be added by the first owner of my TA or by the dealer or by the factory, is that it shows as much wear as the original gold chicken on the hood.  I don't know how Norwood or Van Nuys handled their decals.  But I know how PMD assembly in Pontiac handled it.  The last thing installed on the car was the decals.  The car was transferred from Plant 8, the assembly plant to Plant 16, the finishing plant to have the decals installed.  It made me sick one day when I saw them dump a load of Trans Am decals in the dumpster when they were cleaning out Plant 12, the maintenance/repair plant.  Things happen, guys.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2011, 04:08:00 AM by flashno1 »

Offline Burd Turd

  • Lifetime Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3817
  • Referrals: 0
Re: 6.6 liter vs 6.6 t/a
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2011, 08:07:26 AM »
I bought my Y88 in November of 1979, it has the L-78 motor, and had the 6.6 liter decal, I have 2 pics of the car when I got it but the angle of the shot, you can't see the shaker. when did that decal come out, 1979? There was nothing in the trunk, (spare, jack, inflator) so I find it hard to believe they stuck a decal on it to sell,  when there was stuff missing, You know these dealers, they don't spend a dime until you make them, I remember the 8 track had to be fixed too. Thats one reason I dont do those types of shows anymore, some guy set up in some parking lot and thinks he's at Pebble Beach telling me my car is not correct. ::)
Born and Raised in South Detroit Bitches

Offline dblhh

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 623
  • Referrals: 0
Re: 6.6 liter vs 6.6 t/a
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2011, 08:23:30 AM »
Back in July of 1978 I bought a new Martinique blue 78 T/A with t-tops that had just arrived at the dealership. I did not know anything at the time about there being two different Pontiac engines. My T/A did not have any decals on the shaker and the engine had blue painted valve covers. About the same time, another guy in town bought a new Martinique blue 78 T/A with t-tops and his shaker had the T/A 6.6 decals. I never saw under his hood but I do know his T/A had more power than mine. Several years later I discovered there were two Pontiac engines and my T/A had the L78 and his had the W72.
Herrel

77 T/A, W72, auto, black
77 T/A, Y82, W72, auto, project
79 T/A, auto, project
78 T/A, T-tops, WS6, 400, auto, Marty; SOLD
78 T/A, hardtop, 400, auto, Marty; SOLD

Offline flashno1

  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18
  • Gold Bandit
  • Referrals: 0
Re: 6.6 liter vs 6.6 t/a
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2011, 02:41:12 PM »
I would be interested Dblhh, where was your bird assembled back in 1978? And was there a Firebird Decal on your hood?  Many owners of original TA L78's report that they had the TA 6.6 on their shaker when they bought the car.  My thought is that one plant may have put those decals on both L78s and W78s. The build sheet has no info about decals on the shaker, but the hood emblem and SE codes are listed on the build sheet. The shaker code is WX3 for all Trans Ams, and the FB HOOD EMBLEM is build code WW7 and the SE codes are Y88, Y84, and Y82.  Actually W72 was listed as an Performance Package not an engine code. L78 was the engine code for all Pontiac 400 cubic inch engines. L80 for the 403 Olds engine.  It makes sense to me that the shaker was not shipped with the engines from Plant 9 in Pontiac, MI.  I never saw any 400s shipped that way.  Besides how did we know at Pontiac what color car they would be installed in.  The assembly plant had to keep track and figure that out.  They used the build sheet to assemble the car, but no info that I can see would help out the poor line worker that installed the decal on the shaker. From my many years working the factory floor, there were large turnovers of workers on the final assembly line. I worked the assembly line for a day and did a fine job until my hand got banged hard on an engine head, and after that I didn't do so good on that line. I hope they caught all my mistakes until I could be relieved to go to first aid.  This little scenario has played out many times over the years by many workers.  Was the TA 6.6 shaker decal simply a assembly line worker mistake or a corporate intention?  I think both would be valid to the final owner in determining originality.

Offline John Witzke

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 269
  • Referrals: 0
Re: 6.6 liter vs 6.6 t/a
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2011, 07:09:52 PM »
My intention was never to tell anyone off.  I was simply stating the correct application for shaker decals.  I am sure there were new 1974 Trans Am with the 400 cid engine get SD-455 decals in place of the 400 decal and vice-versa.

But you do bring up a very interesting point.  With all of these assembly line mistakes and the apparent poor quality control standards, it is no wonder that that foreign cars have dominated sales in many US markets.  And that two of the big three nearly went broke.  
John Witzke

Offline flashno1

  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18
  • Gold Bandit
  • Referrals: 0
Re: 6.6 liter vs 6.6 t/a
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2011, 10:14:31 PM »
There were inspectors, John, but they had a huge job. If you made a mistake, you were suppose to alert someone or just mark it in a way that it could be seen. I was just filling in when I made those mistakes on the line.  I was a newbie and I hadn't got familar enough with the job to make it routine like most assembly line veterans do.  Still people didn't always show up for work, and the line must run, so they have to break in someone new.  It was a constant task.  The UAW and GM made some big strides in later contracts to make it hard on the individual if he or she didn't show up for work.  My Trans Am is stock original, and the body parts fit very well.  Not 2000 standards, but very good for that era.  I'm very happy with it.  If you gave me a choice of a 2012 Lexus with all the bells and whistles or a 2nd Gen Trans Am, what would I chose??  I would chose the Lexus....AND then sell it and buy 5 Trans Ams!!  
« Last Edit: September 09, 2011, 10:18:23 PM by flashno1 »

Offline highway star

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 193
  • Referrals: 0
Re: 6.6 liter vs 6.6 t/a
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2011, 11:04:31 PM »
My '78 WS6 PHS documented TA from Van Nuys, had all decals EXCEPT the TA/6.6 decal on the shaker (blank shaker). I'm 2nd owner, bought it with 20k mi. in 1984.  It also didn't come with the space saver inflator bottle, but did have the space saver tire. Go figure, eh. 

Offline John Witzke

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 269
  • Referrals: 0
Re: 6.6 liter vs 6.6 t/a
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2011, 11:09:52 PM »
I will stick to one Trans Am.  My parents ordered mine new Dec 1976 and they took delivery March 1977.  It has 11,382 miles from new and is unrestored.  I am the Pebble Beech guy in the parking lot.

Oh, almost forgot, it is a W72 car.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2011, 08:48:29 PM by John Witzke »
John Witzke

Offline Burd Turd

  • Lifetime Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3817
  • Referrals: 0
Re: 6.6 liter vs 6.6 t/a
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2011, 02:14:23 PM »
I will stick to one Trans Am.  My parents ordered mine new Dec 1976 and they took delivery March 1977.  It has 11,382 miles from new and is unrestored.  I am the Pebble Beech guy in the parking lot.

Oh, almost forgot, it is a W72 car.
Did you Tech the Mi Indian summer show?
Born and Raised in South Detroit Bitches

Offline John Witzke

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 269
  • Referrals: 0
Re: 6.6 liter vs 6.6 t/a
« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2011, 05:44:02 PM »
No, but I am a POCI Tech Advisor and Historian for the 1977-79 W72 Performance Package
John Witzke

Offline Burd Turd

  • Lifetime Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3817
  • Referrals: 0
Re: 6.6 liter vs 6.6 t/a
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2011, 09:38:56 PM »
 The so called Tech I'm refering to was doing the show in a Mall parking lot, Bob Sellers Indian summer.He knew all Pontiacs. ::) I don't recall ever meeting you, or I never had my TA at the natl's, I'm just saying I drove a 78 off a pontiac lot w/ the 6.6liter on the shaker.
Born and Raised in South Detroit Bitches

Offline Hitman

  • Administrator
  • Lifetime Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8257
  • Referrals: 0
    • http://www.78ta.com
Re: 6.6 liter vs 6.6 t/a
« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2011, 12:41:53 PM »
I think the main point of this is that in 1978 if you got the Pontiac 400 with the W72 Performance Package, then you got "T/A 6.6" on the shaker. If in 1978 you got the L78 Pontiac 400 without the W72 Performance Package or the L80 Olds 403 engine, then you got no shaker decals. (and this only applies to non-Special Edition cars) The code that is listed above for the shaker of WX3 is the shaker itself and does not have anything to do with the shaker decals as was stated above. So having "T/A 6.6" installed on the shaker was something that was a mistake and not a common thing that happened. Some people say that there car came with those shaker decals installed and probably it was because they either had the W72 Package or they had a Special Edition or they were mistaken in their memory (which happens alot) or it was a mistake by the Factory. No, you could not order special shaker decals nor order 6" sail panel birds from the dealer and have them installed by the Factory. There was not a box on the Delaer order forms that designated anything like that. So if the car came with those it was a mistake or the Dealer themselves put them on. If it was a mistake from the Factory it still does not make it "Factory Correct". If it was instaleld by the Dealer, it still does not make it "Factory Correct". That is another argument that happens alot about original owners of cars buying a car from a Dealer with something installed on it that was not Factory like Alarm systems, or different rims, or even shaker decals. Just because the car was purchased brand new with those items on the car does not make it a "Factory Correct" car nor a "Stock" car.  Now I am not a "Pureist" and don't care what people have on their car or do to their car as you can tell by my own car. I am just stating the arguments for those people who talk about being "Factory Correct" or "Stock" and who pose those arguments. So having a 1978 with the "T/A 6.6" on your shaker without having the W72 Performance Package is a "mistake" or was added by someone else.
I read back over this and I don't think I am getting my point accross that well. I am just trying to say what would be factory correct on a car and that mistakes did happen, but the mistakes were not as common as poeple would like to think. So I don't care what is on the shaker or what people do to their cars, I am just trying to state what would be "Factory Correct".
Brett Campbell
"Hitman"
www.78ta.com
www.ohiofirebirds.com
1978 Trans Am

Offline SgtRock

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 160
  • 1979 T/A WS6
  • Referrals: 0
    • Link to my photo album
Re: 6.6 liter vs 6.6 t/a
« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2011, 01:34:58 PM »
I don't think anyone misunderstands the argument you present about what the regs say constitutes "factory correct".  I just think people take issue with the notion that "factory correct" constitutes "original". I think the alternative point that is being made is that "factory correct" holds little meaning on cars that were not well quality controlled and were delivered to the customers differently.  You say that the mistakes were rare, yet there are no statistics to prove that, or conversely to prove that they were greater than "rare".  What we know for a fact is that mistakes were made.  Cars were delivered from factory with different emblems and decals. And you can prove this by people's accounts who state what they got on delivery.  Seems to me that the burden of proof is on those that believe mistakes did not happen, that every car was delivered "factory correct" and thuis the only way to have an "original" version of the car is to have it match the "factory correct" standard.  That's the leap of faith that some people refuse to take because what is listed as "factory correct" is not the car they got when they drove off the dealer's lot.  Other examples, by the way, would be side moldings, and other items that the dealers installed -- not the factory.  It hardly makes sense to call a car that has side modling installed by the dealer as not being "factory correct" because the factory itself didn't install it. So, what we're left with is a situation where there will be disagreement over what people define as "original".  Some people will fall back on the "factory correct" definition, and some will fall back on the "dealer delivered" definition.  I don't think anyone on this forum is qualified to say one way or the other, which is more "correct" as it is a totally subjective value and cannot be objectively proven ot disproven.  As I said very early on in this thread, I believe there is room for both views and neither should consider the alternative as "wrong" or "incorrect".

Offline John Witzke

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 269
  • Referrals: 0
Re: 6.6 liter vs 6.6 t/a
« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2011, 04:16:15 PM »
Brett, you have explained it very well.

With over 278,000 Trans Ams produced between 1977 and 1979, there were bound to be some assembly line mistakes.  No one is perfect.  But the point that Brett has made as well as I is what is termed as "factory correct".  Mistakes do not make a these cars rare. 

Today, a lot of people who own 1977-79 Trans Ams were either too young to remember or not born when they were new.  Even more true are the vast number of these cars being restored incorrectly and being past off as a correct restoration.  Many people in the hobby think they are correct and are willing to spend big money.  It just doesn't make sense to me.

 

 
John Witzke

Offline SgtRock

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 160
  • 1979 T/A WS6
  • Referrals: 0
    • Link to my photo album
Re: 6.6 liter vs 6.6 t/a
« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2011, 06:49:09 PM »
Can someone post a scan of the actual "factory correct" standard for the sail birds and the front end Pontiac emblems.  I am having my 1979 T/A repainted at the end of the Car Show season, as the original factory paint is finally starting to cost me at the shows.  When I get it repainted, I am considering changing the sail birds to the 3 inch birds and the front end emblem to the red emblem.  But I'd like to see the factory correct standard in writing before I do that, as the original owner has told me that he took delivery of the vehicle from the factory Christmas 1978 as it is today.  As I am the second owner, either he's lying to me or it indeed came from the factory that way.  In either case, I'd like to see the factory standard for non-SE sail birds and front end emblems for myself.  Also, I am trying to find the sticker for the jacking arm.  This sticker shows a picture of front and rear end and the location of the slots where the jacking arm fits.  Neither Ames not Classic sells them. I've included picture of my current sail birds and front end emblems.  P.S., I was born during the Johnson Administration, so I clearly am old enough to remember these cars.  In fact, this is my fourth F-body, and I've done just about everything on them except a complete engine and itransmission rebuild (I paid someone for that). Thanks.

[attachment deleted by admin, over 90 days old]
« Last Edit: September 11, 2011, 06:53:20 PM by SgtRock »