Author Topic: 4 Relay power window  (Read 25992 times)

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Offline H8Rain

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Re: 4 Relay power window
« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2013, 06:39:14 PM »


Sorry... i have yet another question.  If I eliminate the original relay as shown above, instead of taping off the red wire (or orange I think it may be) since that is the wire that's always hot, can that wire be used to provide power to the 4 new relays? I'd then still change the fuse out to a 30amp as originally suggested.

I was reading the Painless instructions (just for some reference) and it seems like their set up works kinda like what I'm thinking?

What do you think?

Offline Angelo

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Re: 4 Relay power window
« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2013, 07:14:28 PM »
Red with black stripe (when viewed in the Image it looks blurry giving it an orange appearance) wire is the positive wire that by factory design powers the window motors, the pink wire powers the relays. Then relays do not need much electricity, the window motors do, hence the difference. Just like the painless kit, it plugs into the fuse block with a 30 amp breaker. So if you want you could use that (forgoing some of the benefit of wiring it directly). When I'm at a computer i'll list the 6 scenarios.
81' ex-Turbo Trans Am - Resto-mod

Offline Ag77T/A

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Re: 4 Relay power window
« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2013, 07:21:34 PM »
If you're eliminating the relay, you might as well power the new relays with the orange/black stripe wire.  That circuit is already protected.

ta78w72 seems to think it would work fine. You could always try it and see if it performs ok.  IMHO you would get better performance with a heaver gauge wired direct to the battery but I always have a tendency to over engineer wiring.  ;)

Offline Angelo

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Re: 4 Relay power window
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2013, 12:49:44 PM »
This is a rather large post, trying to decipher everything. I'm trying my best to give credit where appropriate as well as explain the differences of the options that have been discussed.

Refer to this page to understand what gauge wire you need for the amps and wire length: http://www.offroaders.com/tech/12-volt-wire-gauge-amps.htm This chart explains why certain wire gauges are used/recommended.

The gauge wire used and the fact that the current for the motors goes through the switches is the main reason we're having this discussion.

Scenarios of wiring power windows with key differences listed

Factory - Problematic as we all know.

  • Only one relay used, it provides 14 gauge power through the factory switches to the power window motors.
  • Heavy current flows through switches which overtime cannot keep up to the task.
  • 14 gauge power flowing to both motors at the same time is barely sufficient.

Painless Kit: Improvement on factory wiring adding 4 relays (like what ta78w72 / lee01 have discussed/documented)

  • Removes window motor power from going through the switches.
  • Purchasable plug-in play solution.
  • Wires into the factory fuse box the same way the factory power windows is wired in.
  • Includes ground wires from door to inside chassis.

ta78w72  Design: A design like the Painless 4 relay setup designed for DIY folks.

  • Extremely cheaper than the Painless kit.
  • Gives you the flexibility to wire it how you want, mount relays where you want, etc...

lee01 Design: A readable schematic version of what ta78w72 designed, with input from the forum. (For reference, this is the thread where Lee put together his diagram with help from ta78w72 and others others: http://www.78ta.com/HTAF/index.php?topic=8202.0) This design is fully documented here: http://www.78ta.com/HTAF/index.php?topic=40530.0



  • Heavier gauge wire directly from battery with appropriate 30 amp fuse inline.

I believe the main difference between lee01 and ta78w72 is their opinion on where the power source comes from (direct from battery vs from fuse box).

angelo Design: That's me! Removes old relay. Not in the image is my recommendation on adding a fusible link if wired to the alternator.



All I did was recommend that the old relay is no longer needed, some folks agreed on my thought so I modified the drawing as such. I also recommend if running from the alternator to include a fusible link (engine side) in addition to a 30 amp fuse. I also advocate for 12 gauge wire (rather than 14) from the battery or alternator to the new relays. After the relays I don't see a problem with 14 gauge wire as the distance from the relays to each window motor is below the 7 foot maximum per the chart linked above. Providing 12 gauge to the relays should provide enough power that both windows can roll up/down. Otherwise you will have the situation when you do both windows at the same time that they slow down. If you do use 12 gauge wire, I highly recommend wiring it directly either from the battery or alternator, the fuse box was not designed to run 12 gauge wire out of the box, introducing a thicker gauge could cause the box to be a hot spot in the wiring.

Also, the Painless setup does not have the original relay, only 4 relays, 1 for each window each direction. So my edit would be the closest to the Painless design.

  • Fusible link recommendation.
  • No longer use original relay.

My drawing is to demonstrate that the old relay is not necessary. If you go this route, I would recommend tapping the wires directly into the fuse box (see other notes below) rather than hacking up the old relay wiring.

Recap
As far as 4 relays and adding ground wires to the doors are concerned, that is the consensus. Providing power to the relays and to the switches though is what is different. Here's a list of possibilities.

Window motor power:
  • From fuse box: Use 14 gauge wire as factory intended (plugged into a BAT port in fuse box).
  • From the battery: use heavier gauge wire to take advantage of direct current from battery.
  • From the alternator: use heavier gauge wire to take advantage of current from the alternator and include a fusable link to protect the system from damage.

Power to window switches to turn relays on/off:
  • Old single relay remains: This relay will simply not allow power to go to the switches unless the key is in the "on" position.
  • Old single relay removed, using pink wire to switches: Wired as pictured to the pink wire, the switches will not see power unless the key is in the "on" position.
  • Old single relay removed, using orange with black stripe wire: The switches will see power whether key is in the ignition or not (NOT RECOMMENDED).
  • No need to worry about if you plug your switch power directly into the fuse box using a free IGN/ACC port.


Other notes

From this specific posting 78ta included a picture (linked below) of the fuse box with the power window motor power, power window relay power, and power door lock power. (reference: http://www.78ta.com/HTAF/index.php?topic=8202.msg86153#msg86153)


My Thoughts
I'm just trying to clear up the confusion since there are many ways to power the windows, I believe this outline lists the differences and a reader can decide on their own which is best for their ride.

I'm not completely sold yet on connecting the power to the alternator, but that's what the factory would most likely do. When I get the motor installed I will wire my windows that way with a fusible link and report back if that way works better or not.

I think if the factory used today's standards, they would have the 4 relays wired with 14 gauge wire to the fuse box. If the power windows were added by a professional shop, I think the 12 gauge between the battery to the relays would be used so the windows would have plenty of power to both work as fast at the same time.
81' ex-Turbo Trans Am - Resto-mod

Offline H8Rain

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Re: 4 Relay power window
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2013, 03:53:09 PM »
Very nicely done!  Thanks so much!

Offline Aus78Formula

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Re: 4 Relay power window
« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2014, 06:18:03 AM »
If anyone needs convincing that rewiring the old window switch and motors with relays is the way to go, here's 2 quick videos I just took of mine which was based on the diagram drawn up in the posts above.

http://s72.photobucket.com/user/Aus78Formula/media/Firebirdpowerwindowsenginerunning_zpsf0c1ad47.mp4.html

http://s72.photobucket.com/user/Aus78Formula/media/Firebirdpowerwindowsnoengine_zpsf4574b7f.mp4.html
« Last Edit: June 23, 2014, 06:24:21 AM by Aus78Formula »

Offline Angelo

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Re: 4 Relay power window
« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2014, 08:27:13 AM »
Nice! I noticed with my relays they are even smoother with the engine running. Battery vs alternator.
81' ex-Turbo Trans Am - Resto-mod

Offline ta78w72

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Re: 4 Relay power window
« Reply #37 on: January 31, 2015, 11:55:33 AM »
The four relay system isn't a panacea for everything that ails your power window system.  I posted a thread at Unitedf-body.com that goes over ALL the problems with the power window system.  If you simply install the four relay system, you may still experience slow windows.

I tapped off the orange/black stripe wire for power and it works just fine.  I also used 12 gauge wire.  The factory used 14 or smaller.  I ran new wires from the relay to the window motor.  I used the existing switch harness to power the switch (pink wire) and the other four wires to trip the relay's.  I maintained the factory relay.

I replaced the motors.  And, I did a lot of other fixes.  My windows work better than when the car rolled off the factory floor.  The windows literally fly up and down.

By the way, back in 2006, I thought it would be a good idea to run a ground from one of the motor bolts to inside the cabin.  That's not necessary.  That circuit has plenty of ground without running an additional wire.

Offline Angelo

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Re: 4 Relay power window
« Reply #38 on: January 31, 2015, 12:37:30 PM »
What is the direct link to your thread?
81' ex-Turbo Trans Am - Resto-mod

Offline ta78w72

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Re: 4 Relay power window
« Reply #39 on: January 31, 2015, 01:37:32 PM »
A direct link won't work for everyone because you've got to be registered to read the forum.  I suggested to Roger that he open the forum like Brett does here, or at least open the Technical Library.  Here's the link though.  I'm still working on it.  But the last part that's unfinished is the four relay wiring which is sort of covered here.  I did it a little different, but there are lots of ways to do the wiring.....all good.  I choose the simplest way for me.

http://unitedf-body.com/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=8895.0

Offline Angelo

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Re: 4 Relay power window
« Reply #40 on: February 01, 2015, 04:37:58 PM »
Tell Roger if he wants to do the community and his web site a service he would make the pages public. My only guess is he's password protected everything because of the server resources needed for search systems like Google to index the site. If you take the time to get quality web hosting, the indexing website load is not a problem and will help drive site membership.

I personally would NOT recommend posting your knowledge on private sites. You want to become an authority on what you talk about, you want what you wrote to be discovered by others searching for the same problem, or you want what ever you write to be accessible by you and others as time goes on, etc... To achieve that you want your knowledge posted on web sites that Google indexes. Your time and energy of everything you wrote on a private site is now at the mercy of whom ever runs the private site. What if the web site shuts down or the data is lost? Any public site like this one is constantly indexed by search engines and copies archived to sites like archive.org, your time sharing your knowledge here will not be lost regardless. Just my 2 cents.
81' ex-Turbo Trans Am - Resto-mod

Offline Grand73Am

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Re: 4 Relay power window
« Reply #41 on: February 01, 2015, 05:18:22 PM »
I'm a registered member over there, so I was able to log in and see it. It's an excellent tutorial on working on the power windows and associated parts. I picked up a few good tips from it. Thanks!
Steve F.

Offline Angelo

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Re: 4 Relay power window
« Reply #42 on: February 02, 2015, 11:20:44 AM »
I didn't mean to seem so harsh, sorry.
81' ex-Turbo Trans Am - Resto-mod

Offline ta78w72

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Re: 4 Relay power window
« Reply #43 on: February 02, 2015, 12:54:10 PM »
I'm a registered member over there, so I was able to log in and see it. It's an excellent tutorial on working on the power windows and associated parts. I picked up a few good tips from it. Thanks!

Thanks!  Coming from you that's quite a compliment.  I appreciate it.  I'm still working on that thread.  It will be another week before I'm through.

As far as the private status of that site, I agree that parts of it should be open.  Roger is concerned because there has been a lot of strange activity from China and Russia trying to enter the site.  That's why he screens who comes on and requires people to be registered.  He uses Go Daddy so I think the data is safe.  I can't remember that site ever being down.  But I do remember the disasters Trans Am Country had.   I think they lost everything twice.

Offline Angelo

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Re: 4 Relay power window
« Reply #44 on: February 02, 2015, 01:23:30 PM »
Tell Roger about a service called cloudflare. The free version will minimally protect the site but the $20/month version you can literally block countries.
81' ex-Turbo Trans Am - Resto-mod