Author Topic: 4 Relay power window  (Read 35730 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline H8Rain

  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 11
  • Referrals: 0
Re: 4 Relay power window
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2012, 10:11:58 AM »
Sorry.... nevermind.... I read angelo's post above and see that you can use a fused distribution block.

But then my only question is... if I use a fused distribution block, does the power wire coming from the battery (or back of the alternator) still need to be fused?  I'm guessing it does not but want to be sure.

Thanks!!!!!

Offline Angelo

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1046
  • Referrals: 0
Re: 4 Relay power window
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2012, 10:31:25 AM »
Yea that would work better than the $4 fuse block I got (http://www.jegs.com/i/Dorman+Products/326/85668/10002/-1). If you are running stereo amps I would definitely use what you have pictured, I'm not 100% confident in the $4 fuse block I got handling the 30 amps.
81' ex-Turbo Trans Am - Resto-mod

Offline Angelo

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1046
  • Referrals: 0
Re: 4 Relay power window
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2012, 10:44:33 AM »
Stereo guys run wire directly to the battery don't add fusible links to them. But if you install it like the factory at the alternator, I'm pretty sure you need a fusible link there, it serves a different function. I still don't have my head wrapped around the difference between a fusible link in the engine compartment and regular fuses, but I read enough to know fusible links prevent fires but allow for random amp surges like you get when you first turn on an AC motor (Fan or power window), where a regular blade fuse will blow once the amps surpasses a specific amount. fuses protect specific items, fusible links protect the system, as I understand it.

BTW I got these battery side post studs (http://www.amazon.com/Raptor-GBPA1S-Positive-Battery-Extender/dp/B0002EXMFY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1355931499&sr=8-2&keywords=GM+side+terminal), you can use 5/16" ring connectors on them to connect additional power to. If I decide to wire my window relays to the battery, that's what I'm using. Otherwise I'll have it wired to the alternator like the factory designed with a fusible link. I'm still on the fence which way to go myself and will decide when I get to that point. As of today though I'm going the factory route, but I still have some car stereo buddies that may convince me otherwise. I'm using the studs for now for my trickle charger.
81' ex-Turbo Trans Am - Resto-mod

Offline pancho400cid

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 669
  • Viva los PONCHOS!!
  • Referrals: 0
Re: 4 Relay power window
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2012, 07:39:47 PM »
Wow! - such great info in this thread!  Thanks to all.  I plan to do this to my brown 78 - which has power windows from the factory but they were both inoperative before I started on the car. 

It looks to me like the pin-outs on the aftermarket relays are:

   86 - coil pos
   85 - coil neg
   30 - Common
   87a - Normally Closed
   87 - Normally Open

My question - is  anyone sure of the pin-out on the factory relay?  Is the pink wire for the coil?  Does the coil ground through a mounting bolt or something?

Also - on fuses / maxifuses / fusible link question I also could not find a great clear answer on the internet - just a lot of guys like us asking the same questions.  I have witnessed a fusible link being blown and it is rather exciting - definitely not something you would want to happen inside the car - better in the engine bay.
   
1978 Trans Am - Brown - Current Project
1978 Trans Am - Silver - Future Uncertain

Offline Angelo

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1046
  • Referrals: 0
Re: 4 Relay power window
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2012, 08:30:11 PM »
The factory relays are not BOSCH style, so those pins you have referenced don't mean much in that case. BOSCH relays can be used in a number of situations, most cases one of the pins is not used. I think now days it's cheaper to use universal relays then make relays for specific tasks.

GM grounded the relays in some cases, so if you don't see a black wire and it's down to 3-4 wires to the relay, chances are it's already grounded to the chassis in some way.

For the Power Window factory relay (not considering the new relay setup), the relay is grounded so no black wire. The red wire from the fuse box is what is providing the power for the window motor, the pink wire tells the relay when to open or close. The other red wire (with white stripe) goes from the relay to the switches. Pink is normally only hot when the key is in ignition/start mode. If the car is in ignition mode, then the relay opens and allows the current from the red wire to continue to the window switches.
81' ex-Turbo Trans Am - Resto-mod

Offline pancho400cid

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 669
  • Viva los PONCHOS!!
  • Referrals: 0
Re: 4 Relay power window
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2012, 08:50:04 PM »
OK.... cool...
« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 08:51:43 PM by pancho400cid »
1978 Trans Am - Brown - Current Project
1978 Trans Am - Silver - Future Uncertain

Offline Angelo

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1046
  • Referrals: 0
Re: 4 Relay power window
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2012, 08:55:24 PM »
Yes!
« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 08:58:34 PM by angelo »
81' ex-Turbo Trans Am - Resto-mod

Offline H8Rain

  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 11
  • Referrals: 0
Re: 4 Relay power window
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2012, 08:57:51 AM »
I also found this link helpful.  I like to learn as much as possible about new things....

www.mp3car.com/the-faq-emporium/117895-faq-relays-how-they-work-and-how-to-wire-it-up.html




Offline ta78w72

  • Lifetime Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6297
  • Referrals: 0
Re: 4 Relay power window
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2012, 03:26:46 PM »
Lee01 didn't develop that circuit, I did.  In or around 2007, I read a post at another forum about a problem with the power windows.  I took inspiration from that post and develop a schematic on an excel document.  What Lee01 did was to take my schematic and put it on another format to make it easier to read.  To say he developed the circuit with many others is just plain dishonest.

I decided to keep the original relay because I like to maintain as much of the originality of the system as possible.  You could remove the relay with no problem...but as GrandAm said, it would work with or without the key on.  The original system worked only with the key on...which can be irritating so I see why he changed it.  The relay grounds to the steering column via the fastener. 

I also had a redundant ground from the motor fasteners to somewhere suitable in the cabin.  I've since rethought that after seeing what 4speed did.  He simply grounded the door rather than try to run a ground from the power window motor.  That make more sense to me.

Well, I developed that circuit years ago and creative people need to do new things.  I've since developed a step by step process for adding an AUX port to the Delco AM/FM cassettes, 8-tracks, and AM/FM stereo's from 1978 through 1987.  Although it's a cable mount solution, I do have parts ordered that may solve the mechanical issue of installing a port on the bezel itself.  But the electrical is sorted out and it works.  And, it doesn't permanently destroy or alter any part of the radio.  That process is documented on another trans am forum.

Offline Angelo

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1046
  • Referrals: 0
Re: 4 Relay power window
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2012, 04:27:52 PM »
 ta78w72, I was unaware you designed this originally. So sorry, I'll update my replies when I get time this weekend so you get credit where credit is due


Do you mind sharing the link to the other forum about the radio wiring, I'd love to read about it.

Thanks for coming up with this relay setup!
81' ex-Turbo Trans Am - Resto-mod

Offline Angelo

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1046
  • Referrals: 0
Re: 4 Relay power window
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2012, 11:31:45 PM »
I found the posting on that forum, it's awesome! If I ever were to install a factory radio, an AUX jack is definitely the way to go. It be quite easy to plugin a bluetooth receiver into it and keep it completely hidden under the dash or in the glove box.
81' ex-Turbo Trans Am - Resto-mod

Offline ta78w72

  • Lifetime Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6297
  • Referrals: 0
Re: 4 Relay power window
« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2012, 11:44:55 AM »
If you're eliminating the relay, you might as well power the new relays with the orange/black stripe wire.  That circuit is already protected.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 11:49:05 AM by ta78w72 »

Offline Angelo

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1046
  • Referrals: 0
Re: 4 Relay power window
« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2012, 08:10:30 AM »
I believe the orange and black wire is 14 gauge though. Even if its 12 gauge, 10 gauge to the relays is a big improvement, I believe it will handle 50 amps within 4 feet.

The kit Painless sells with its 4 relay "improvement" I believe uses the existing wiring. I'll look at their instructions at lunch.
81' ex-Turbo Trans Am - Resto-mod

Offline Angelo

  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1046
  • Referrals: 0
Re: 4 Relay power window
« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2012, 08:25:47 AM »
The Painless 30715 kit wires directly into the fuse block. Fuse block has one 12 gauge and one 14 gauge wire feeding it power from the alternator. So the red and black wire would be just as good as what the Painless engineers designed.
81' ex-Turbo Trans Am - Resto-mod

Offline lee01

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 444
  • Referrals: 0
Re: 4 Relay power window
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2013, 03:44:42 PM »
Hi, i have done a little DIY on the relay setup.

I won't make any kits per say, I give the recipe on what to buy and all the info in this post:
http://www.78ta.com/HTAF/index.php?topic=40530.new#new
Current project:
90 Mustang GT 5.0
10 STI Sportech
Last T/A's
1979 x 4