Author Topic: GM Bailout  (Read 29023 times)

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Offline Hitman

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Re: GM Bailout
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2008, 06:43:19 PM »
Try this one on. Right now the hourly compensation for the Big Three is $73.20 / hour.
You work for GM, Ford, or Chrysler, $73.20 / hour.
Toyota is $48 / hour.
Compared to the average compensation for management and professional workers, it is $47 / hour.
If you manufacture goods, $13 an hour.
And all workers nationwide, it's $28 / hour.

Now, should we be providing billions of dollars to bail out the companies like GM, Ford and Chrysler that compensate their workers 52.5% more than the market (like Toyota)? 54% than management and professional workers? 157% more than the average manufacturing wage? 132% more than the average compensation of all American workers? I don't think so. It's the unions. If GM has to fold, then they fold. And you know what, it is the unions that did it.  Without the Unions, General Motors would not be faced with folding. Instead, it would almost certainly be a vastly larger, far more prosperous company, producing more and better motor vehicles, at far lower costs of production and prices than it does today, and providing employment to hundreds of thousands more workers than it does today.
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Offline rkellerjr

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Re: GM Bailout
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2008, 06:46:20 PM »
Good points!
Rich

Offline pat

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Re: GM Bailout
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2008, 07:03:08 PM »
Try this one on. Right now the hourly compensation for the Big Three is $73.20 / hour.
You work for GM, Ford, or Chrysler, $73.20 / hour.
Toyota is $48 / hour.
Compared to the average compensation for management and professional workers, it is $47 / hour.
If you manufacture goods, $13 an hour.
And all workers nationwide, it's $28 / hour.

Now, should we be providing billions of dollars to bail out the companies like GM, Ford and Chrysler that compensate their workers 52.5% more than the market (like Toyota)? 54% than management and professional workers? 157% more than the average manufacturing wage? 132% more than the average compensation of all American workers? I don't think so. It's the unions. If GM has to fold, then they fold. And you know what, it is the unions that did it.  Without the Unions, General Motors would not be faced with folding. Instead, it would almost certainly be a vastly larger, far more prosperous company, producing more and better motor vehicles, at far lower costs of production and prices than it does today, and providing employment to hundreds of thousands more workers than it does today.

i agree remove the union they have served their porpous and made work places safe and got wages fair and we can move on with out their greed
speed kills drive a ford and live forever

Offline w72transamowner

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Re: GM Bailout
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2008, 07:05:00 PM »
I actually agree with you Brett, I just still believe it would be a blow to the U.S. and the American psychy if we let them fail.
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Offline MrAFX

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Re: GM Bailout
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2008, 07:22:56 PM »
Let it fail. at least thats my initial reaction.

That is so positively insane, i can't see beyond the fumes coming out my ears.

are you sure thats what people make, i see you call this hourly compensation; is this the average? , what's the median income, i would really like to know that so you could see if it is skewed somewhere.

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Offline ta78w72

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Re: GM Bailout
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2008, 07:40:06 PM »
I bet they get bailed out.  The economy is suppose to get healthy again in 2010.  The big three are arguing that they need funding to get them through this slow period.  Obama, Pelosi and Reed are urging immediate action from Bush.  If no action is taken, Obama will put this first on his list when he takes over.  Of course the democrats want this settled before the new administration comes to power because if it blows up they can blame the previous administration.  If I were Bush, I'd slow roll this and let Obama take care of it next year.

Also, there is talk about the government guaranteeing the automotive pension funds if the auto companies go bankrupt.  I'll never understand that.  I don't even have a pension...why would my tax dollars go to someone else's pension?

Offline kentuckyyeti

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Re: GM Bailout
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2008, 07:50:48 PM »
And companies will magically reduce their prices without the unions.  Oh, wait, no they won't.  Saying it is all a union's fault is elementary at best.  Sure, they have grown more powerful for a long time, and now it is starting to show, even after they have begun to make concessions.  And more concessions are on the way if they want to survive.  However, no one could foresee the extravagant rise in healthcare costs that have happened over the last decade.  Retirees were given generous pensions with included healthcare that was fairly reasonable.  Now it is through the roof, but the automakers had contracts with these guys from way back when it was cheaper.  Toyota and Honda USA don't have the costs associated with retirees since they haven't been here that long.  And those well-paid retirees fuel the economy.  Someone has to have money to buy things.  There is enough blame to go around for everyone.  If unions were always the only problem, only non-union contractors would get the construction jobs.  But I worked construction for many years, and saw non-union contractors put higher bids on projects, allowing union contractors to get the jobs.  So were the non-union lesser-paid employees without benefits better off than their counterparts?  The company wasn't going to share the excess profit with them.  So why do you think GM would be any different?  And even a whole lot of you anti-union guys benefit from the unions indirectly.  Your breaks, any paid vacations, sick leave, OSHA safety requirements, etc.. all came about because of union lobbying for a better living and a safer workplace.  The companies never did it out of the goodness of their hearts.  For the record, unions make up less than 11% of the American workforce.  That means 89% of us aren't union.  Are all the non-union companies doing ok today?  Is Lehman, Bear Stearns, and dozens more doing ok?   Not when I checked.  And not all union employees are highly-paid with great benefits.  Sometimes all it does is protect them from being fired because they are getting older.  To place all the blame on unions is somewhat silly to me.  If the cost associated with union employess makes cars so high, why is it that a Toyota built by a worker that receives 40% less than his  Ford counterpart, why can't I get a Toyota  Camry for 40% less than a Taurus.  Check the newspaper- they are higher than most of their American counterparts.  And before you tell me it is the quality, look at Toyota and their recall record.  They led all automakers in recalls in 2005 with a RECORD 1.5 million recalls.  They improved and still led in 2006.  In 2007 they were third, according to their CEO.  High prices, average quality.  The only difference is how they pay their workers.  Go figure.

Offline S76GUY

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Re: GM Bailout
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2008, 08:07:52 PM »
Let wall street and the oil companies bail them out.
There the ones that put them there.
 >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Tony T.

Offline jphillips3333

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Re: GM Bailout
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2008, 08:21:53 PM »
GM isn't building what people want - pure and simple.  They've damaged their credibility by building cars with a 3/36 warranty and denying claims when you take your car in under warranty.  The housing market tanked, gas shot up, they were slow to get off the SUV builds, credit dried up ... and they STILL chugged along with their heads in the sand - then finally decided to take drastic changes in the last 6 months.  A little late ... they clipped the iceberg last year while the CEO was arranging deck chairs.

I've posted parts of this before;

Have one truck line - consolidate with GMC and Chevy.  Tahoe or Yukon.  Suburban or Denali.  Why a whole different truck for a grill change and some flashy badging?
Dump Buick ... they've already dumped Olds.
Dump Hummer - nobody will pay the gas price.
Dump the unions.  They aren't profitable and you'd get a ton of people willing to work vs. not have a job.
Dump the mgmt & golden parachutes and executive pay.
Nobody earns more than $250K - somebody would run the company for that.  Anyone want that job?
Pay for performance - you turn the company around, you get a bonus ... as do ALL the employees.

But they need a profitable vehicle - low cost, increased mileage, quality build ..something to rival the Civic.  Problem is, people won't give them a look so it's really up to their marketing, finance & accounting geniuses to find a solution to that.  The engineering is quite good - I think C6 Z06 is an outstanding product.

I don't want to pay for somebody's screw up.  They need to cut costs just like you or I would if we were in a crunch  ... just like I find it unfair that taxes need to be increased to bail out someone who's been irresponsible the last five years.  Just like I'm torqued about AIG getting another $40B so they can go on a California wine tasting, massage, manicure & pedicure boondoggle.  Someone needs to be taken out back to the woodshed.
John

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Offline pat

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Re: GM Bailout
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2008, 08:29:52 PM »
it costs money to cut costs

they need the money to get through till the savings start adding up it takes more time with a giant company to do those things than it woul a small company
speed kills drive a ford and live forever

Offline kentuckyyeti

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Re: GM Bailout
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2008, 08:42:28 PM »
And besides:  someone likes bailouts.  Otherwise, all the guys that voted "Yea" to it wouldn't have been re-elected.

FINAL House VOTE RESULTS FOR ROLL CALL 681

      H R 1424      YEA-AND-NAY      3-Oct-2008      1:22 PM
      QUESTION:  On Motion to Concur in Senate Amendments
      BILL TITLE: Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008


               Yeas   Nays PRES NV
Democratic 172   63     
Republican  91    108     
Independent         
TOTALS     263   171 

Senate vote:

   H R 3997      RECORDED VOTE      29-Sep-2008      2:07 PM
      QUESTION:  On Concurring in Senate Amendment With An Amendment
      BILL TITLE: To amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to provide earnings assistance and tax relief to members of the uniformed services, volunteer firefighters, and Peace Corps volunteers, and for other purposes


                   Ayes   Noes   PRES    NV
Democratic    140    95     
Republican     65     133                 1
Independent         
TOTALS        205    228                1

jphillips- there's a lot of common sense to what you wrote.  Therefore, it will never come to pass.  Common sense is MIA in this country.


Offline jphillips3333

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Re: GM Bailout
« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2008, 08:56:38 PM »
OK ...it takes money, agreed.  Uh, let's not forget the important adjective, "taxpayer" money.  

So, if we're bailing out GM, what are they going to do differently?  How will they be profitable?  Or is this sunk cost that the taxpayer just absorbs while some fat cat gets a golden parachute when they decide to pull the plug?  I'd want a little more accountability than what I've seen other firms give of late.

I guess I'm less than pleased with the current bailouts we've taken on as a nation.  The $700B bailout ... yeah, banks are buying other banks.  Glad I could help with mergers and acquisitions ... uh, what's in it for me?  Oh, that's right, the same old mortgage loans that gobble up interest payments in the first seven years while barely applying any of the payment to principal on any home loan they offer.  That'll turn the housing market around, NOT.  Why sign up for a mortgage?  Why BOTHER to refinance.

When they squeeze more tax dollars out of everyone, and they will, and the ones that can are still religiously paying their mortgage, are they going to get a bailout now that making ends meet is even harder with the run up on local taxes and insurance premiums?  I'll bet NOT.

Where do we the prudent, sign up to have our mortgages and debt restructured to meet our needs in this time of inflation and a nationally subsidized devaluation of our monetary system?

We're on a very slippery slope here ...
John

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Offline w72transamowner

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Re: GM Bailout
« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2008, 09:21:00 PM »
"Analysts:  Bailout would send GM stock even lower":

http://detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081110/AUTO01/811100410

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Offline kentuckyyeti

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Re: GM Bailout
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2008, 09:38:10 PM »
Not just American or union automakers, either.  Non-union and union automakers world-wide are in trouble.  Most appear to be receiving government subsidies.

BUENOS AIRES, Argentina (CNN) -- Argentina's principal carmakers have ordered some factory workers to take unpaid vacations and slashed work schedules for others after a recent drop in auto exports to Brazil and Mexico.


Thousands of autoworkers march Monday in Buenos Aires, Argentina, opposing recent cuts in the industry.

 Some have considered the moves unfair.

"In the last six years, we have been the creators of 20 percent of the nation's gross industrial product. We were third in foreign currency imports to this dear country. We don't deserve to be thrown into the streets with the first problem," said Ricardo Pignanelli, a member of the mechanics union.

In the province of Santa Fe, General Motors fired 435 workers who were later rehired through a mandatory conciliation process imposed by the provincial government.

But in Cordoba, Argentina's second-largest city, Renault did not renew its contract with 300 workers.

Iveco, maker of Fiat trucks, ordered rotating layoffs for 350 workers, and Volkswagen laid off 228 workers -- showing that the crisis has permeated all sectors of the industry.

Offline Hitman

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Re: GM Bailout
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2008, 09:41:39 PM »
Saying it is all a union's fault is elementary at best.  

Elementary....... really?

To place all the blame on unions is somewhat silly to me.  

Yes, to place all the blame there is silly so I should not have said that.... but it does play a big part.

Are all the non-union companies doing ok today?  Is Lehman, Bear Stearns, and dozens more doing ok?   Not when I checked.

ummm.... you are talking to totally different things here and reasons.  It is elementary to compare GM to Lehman (  ;)  )
Brett Campbell
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